Contender front sights

[Elric]

It seems there were two "versions" T/C front sight, one that was welded to the barrel, and the Ultimate Sight [Silhouette] front sight, same shape, but using a removable sight blade that is pinned in with a roll pin.

Welded [or Soldered]
T/C said on the back of an "Ultimate Sight" package that the welded front sight had to be returned to T/C to be removed so the later "Ultimate Sight" could be installed [after drilling/tapping]. Jack First Gun Parts has the three heights available

Heights: [may be more]
.500
.535
.635


"Ultimate" Front Sight Jack First Gun Parts has Ultimate Front Sight available, along with some different blades.


Contender Ultimate Sight [takes sight blades]
9291 Front Sight, 10"
9292 Front Sight, 14"

Sight inserts were available in .060, .080, .100 and .120 widths.
I don't know the blade heights for the 10" model.
9294 Steel Inserts, 10"
9296 Steel Inserts, 14" [.500" high]

Screws 2x 6-48 x .156

There were one screw versions.

Interchangeable Blade heights - there are 6 different front sights
#4...0.635
#5...0.595
#6...0.530
#7...0.500
#8...0.490
#9...0.630

springer222 on Grey Beard Outdoors wrote:
Table 9a: T/C Sight Chart

T/C Contender Pistol
.............................................Front...Front
Barrel........................Rear...Front...Sight...Blade....Front Source
Caliber/type.........Length...Sight..Sight...Height..Height...Base of info
.22 lr bull............10"....Low.....6.....0.530"...0.180"....hi Meas on T/C barrel (3 samples)
.22 WMR bull...........10"....Low.....6.....0.530"...0.180"....hi T/C shop info
.22 Hornet bull........10"....Low.....6.....0.530"...0.180"....hi T/C shop info
.222 Rem...............10"....Med.....5.....0.595".....hi....T/C shop info
.223 Rem...............10"....Med.....5.....0.595".....hi....T/C shop info
.32 H&R mag bull.......10"....Med.....5.....0.595"...0.257"....hi Meas on T/C barrel
.32/20 WCF bull........10"....Low.....5.....0.595"...0.262"....hi Meas on T/C barrel
.357 Rem Mag bull......10"....Med.....5.....0.595"...0.265"....hi Meas on T/C barrel
.357 Rem Max bull......10"....Med.....5.....0.595".....hi T/C shop info
.44 Rem Mag............10"....Med.....4.....0.635".....hi T/C shop info
.45 ACP SSK bull.......10"....Med.....5.....0.595"...0.245"....hi Meas on SSK barrel
7-30 Waters Super14....14"....High....6.....0.530"...0.180"....hi Meas on T/C barrel

T/C Contender Carbine
.............................................Front....Front
Barrel.......................Rear....Front...Sight....Blade....Front Source
Caliber/type........Length...Sight...Sight...Height...Height...Base of info
.22LR tapered..........21"....Low......8.....0.490"...0.186"...lo T/C shop info
.22LR tapered..........21"....Med......8.....0.490"...0.186"...lo Meas on T/C barrel
.22LR tapered..........21"....peep.....8.....0.490"...0.186"...lo Meas on T/C barrel
.223 Rem tapered.......21"....Med......9.....0.630"...0.295"...hi T/C shop info
.22LR bull.............21"....High.....9.....0.630"...0.295"...hi Meas on T/C custom shop barrel
7-30 Waters tapered....21"....Low......7.....0.500"...0.180"...hi Meas on T/C barrel
.357 Rem Max tapered...21"....Med......8.....0.490"...0.187"...lo Meas on T/C barrel

Front Sights | New England Custom Gun Service, Ltd Oh, my lord... Even -IF- it was a spot-on match, they use a "dogbone" shaped sight insert, not the [dirt] common dovetail. .807" R-100-807 Height: .362" looks to be the closest match.

 

[Jeff H]

Elric, nice compilation of otherwise far-flung bits of data. Unless you object, I'd like to copy/paste to a word doc for the sake of posterity.

I spoke with a fella at Williams a couple years ago when I took a notion to put irons on my 18" 357 Mag Contender Carbine. He suggested using the "Shotgun Shorty" ramp. It fits a .815" diameter. It just might rock a little on a .812" Contender barrel. Mine mic's .810, so I think I'd just use a pop-can shim under it. Any kind of epoxy would work well to, but I think I'd tweak the sides of the ramp a tad to close the gap.

I have other ramps designed for smaller barrels which will work, and they look better than the original TC stuff too. My plan was to use a ramp/base which fit well and looked nice, make a dovetailed front sight which is overly tall and then shoot/trim until I got it where I wanted it and THEN shop for a front sight blade based on the height I came up with.

My rear sight is a brand new Williams Fool-Proof, with target knobs I snagged just before prices got super-stupid on everything. I am bound and determined to mount this sight on something, but the 18" 357 puts the front sight in a fuzzy zone, so I may have to try it on a 24" something.

I had asked if the front sight height should be figured with the rear sight all the way down, but never got a straight answer.

 

[Elric]

I had asked if the front sight height should be figured with the rear sight all the way down, but never got a straight answer.

What makes this easier is if you have a "bull" barrel, where it is .812 at the muzzle and .812 at the breach. Then, all you have to do is figure out the mid-height of the rear sight, then the front sight base + front sight = rear sight height.

If you need to calculate for a tapered barrel it's the same concept, but it involves more MATH.

Run the rear sight down till it touches the barrel. Measure height to center of aperture.
Run rear sight up until it reaches top of travel. Measure height to center of aperture.

Take half of that height [high - low = total travel]. add to 1/2 barrel diameter [should be @ .406].

Now that you have the mid-point height, you can figure the base + front sight height. The front base + front sight combined height should be somewhere close to the mid-point of travel of the rear sight.

SR MicroSight on Williams FoolProof Sight Experience and Williams Foolproof (FP) Sights should give more "facts".

You need to refer to the "Ramps, Beads and Open Sights" in the Williams Gun Sight Company 2021 catalog. Pages 24-25. You will see a big red rectangle on the lower left of page 24 "FRONT AND REAR HEIGHT RELATIONSHIPS EXPLAINED" that does just that.

FRONT AND REAR HEIGHT RELATIONSHIPS EXPLAINED

 

[Missionary]

When needing a right height front sight I forget the math. JB Weld a copper wire on top the front site and file down to perfect. More fun to shoot than look at that E place. But that is good info.

414 SM is right at my favorite caliber. How it will sing in a 24" tube !
Our Model 36 Marlin in 414 SM with the 20" barrel produces 275 fps more over the same load in the DW 8 inch revolver.
Then some slower powders in the Marlin really will crank out some rpm's.

 

[Elric]

414 SM is right at my favorite caliber. How it will sing in a 24" tube !
Our Model 36 Marlin in 414 SM with the 20" barrel produces 275 fps more over the same load in the DW 8 inch revolver.

I got a chrono'd 2100 fps [note this changed, CRS?] with a 210gr FTX out of a Super 16 .414SM. Right lively in a composite stock. Not beating me, but twisting...

Note: Over 7 years ago, I remember it was over 2,000 fps. I've had a computer crash in Aug '23, it should be on Cast Bullets ? or Artful Bullet...

 

[Missionary]

That is one fast load. That would put corn crunchers down way far away.
We have never shot anything lighter than the 265 grain in our 414's. Always thought that lighter slugs is why we kept all the 41 mag revolvers. The torque does get lively.
But I can see a day when we get out to open ground and a very flat shooting .411 bullet will be on the menu.

 

[Elric]

That was a load for a "short" Super 16. With a 24" barrel, you can choose other powders.

When it's Spring, a man's thoughts turn to... big cast bullets.

There's some 240 or 260 grain cast bullets that should be spanked at about 1,000-1,100 fps. If I wanted to really turn up the wick on a .414SM, Encore, High Wall, Ruger #1 would be on my list. We would find the outer limits on brass strength...

 

[dale2242]

I took the sights off many of my Contender pistol barrels and just tossed them in a box.
Man, I wish that I had packaged, marked and kept them separate.

 

[Elric]

Williams Foolproof (FP) Sights page has been somewhat updated. Added the three FP sight outline views from the Installation / Use instructions.

 

[Elric]

Hmm, pulled out an early Williams TC rear sight, twiddled the elevator nob. Nothing. Turns out the elevator screw had snapped about 1/8" below the bottom of the cross bar.

Grabbed another, knob turns, top rises and falls. BUT it gets pretty stiff with about 1/4 of the downward travel to go... Grr...

Screw is a 6-40 [major diameter .134]

 

[Elric]

Williams Receiver Adjustments by Jim in Idaho

How much to move the sight, or how much the POI moves with each click depends on your sight radius. You can skip to the bottom for the easy answer but the formula shown here works for any open or peep sighted firearm - handgun or rifle.

Assuming this is the old standard Williams Foolproof, the windage screw is 40 tpi so each full turn moves the sight .025". At 20 clicks per full revolution each click moves the sight .00125".

To calculate sight adjustment use the formula (X / sight radius in inches) = (POI correction needed / distance to target in inches). X is the amount you will need to move your sight. Plugging some numbers into the equation:
POI correction needed = 6"
distance to target = 3600" (100 yards)

You will need to measure the sight radius, within 1/4" is fine. Just for example let's say it's 24". Simplifying the equation with those numbers you get:
(6 * 24) / 3600 = X, solving for X you get .04". So you'd need to move the rear sight .04" to the left. .04 / .00125" per click = 32 clicks left windage.


Went through the preliminary math just for the heck of it, but all you need to do is use (6 * sight radius) / 3600 = distance to move sight. Plug in the actual sight radius in inches on your 336 and you have your sight correction. Sight correction divided by .00125 = number of clicks.

NOTE: Williams states the elevation scale on the side is for reference only.

I think the long answer is the values vary depending on sight radius. My SWAG is that if you do the math, you can figure out the movement-per-click.

 

[Elric]

Ordered a new FP for the Contender, plus a 3/16ths high Williams Streamlined ramp. FP does not come with TK, but I can deal with that.

The FP I have here is marked "TC S", not fully sure if that's for a Scout? The height of the vertical dovetail is 1.225 [0.5" scale] , the windage "crossbar" is 1.750 wide [0.5" scale]. I have a Target Knob, OAL 1.08", in the vertical [elevation] position and it is too short.

So when I get my new FP, I will compare the vertical "staff" and the horizontal crossbar.

NOTE: When I get my little bundle of joy from Midway, I will order my new barrel from MGM. Probably send my Williams Streamlined ramp out there. Hope it arrives in time, they have a 10-12 week turn-around on new barrels....

All typos are mine.

 

[Elric]

My new FP-T/C Encore and Omega # 36890 arrived, after working on Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, I clicked my way to detaching the FoolProof Top.

The working portion of the Elevation screw on the old Contender sight is .395 and my minty new Encore sight is .389 so the stock FP-T/C elevation screw cannot reach the lower 1/4 of elevation scale.

New sight - top is 1.221" tall, old is 1.226 tall.
New sight, windage is 1.755 wide, old sight is 1.745 wide.

New - width across base, front to rear - 1.063
Old - width across base, front to rear - 1.150

New - front of mounting base to rear of base - 1.480
Old - front of mounting base to rear of base - 1.750

New - mounting base: .910
Old - mounting base: .710

New - thickness of mount at screws .227
Old - thickness of mount at screws .190

New - aperture holder .308 width [diameter]
Old - aperture holder .315 width [diameter]

So, looks like the max height is @ .850 from underside of barrel mounting radius to top of aperture holder. So... .850 - .150 is .700 for maximum height. Oops, I need to figure out the lower point.

.320 minimum height [center of aperture] to .700 maximum height [center of aperture]. Sooo. .510 is the middle of the rear sight height? With a straight taper [bull barrel] the front sight should be @ .510 high?

Further, the 3/16 high [0.1875] Streamline .250 wide [N] ramp plus a 0.406 front sight will give us .504, close enough.

SIGHT COMBINATION CHART Page 24 of Williams 2021 Catalog.
Ramp Ht 3/16”
Ht from Base to Dovetail .0975
Height of Williams Bead .406
From Top of Barrel to top of bead .5035

Old sight stamped TC S on bottom rear of base at bottom of dovetail
New sight stamped TC inside dovetail, level with gib lock

Looks like Williams made it as small as possible.

Got to recharge my 2008 vintage Sony DSC-H3 battery...

 

[Jeff H]

Dumb question, but did you ask Williams about a replacement for the broken screw?

It's been a couple years, but when I called, the guy I talked to was very pleasant and willing to help.

 

[Elric]

Jeff, I haven't. I'll ask - WILLIAMS - what the TK screw length measurements are.

15753 FP TK Short Windage Screw
15752 FP TK Long Windage Screw
11524 FP TK All Purpose Elevation Screw
11525 FP TK Long Elevation Screw

NOTE: The windage screw is left hand, the elevation screw is right hand.

The knurled part of the TK is .400 high.

I think I wiped out my [too short] TK elevation screw by not unlocking the lock screw... snap...

 

[Jeff H]

Jeff, I haven't. I'll ask - WILLIAMS - what the TK screw length measurements are.

15753 FP TK Short Windage Screw
15752 FP TK Long Windage Screw
11524 FP TK All Purpose Elevation Screw
11525 FP TK Long Elevation Screw

The knurled part of the TK is .400 high.

I think I wiped out my [too short] TK elevation screw by not unlocking the lock screw... snap...

While you're at it, ask about target knobs, if that's what you want. I think they used to sell them separately.

Yeah, have to unlock before adjusting. Start seeing things go the way they should on the target, get excited, forget... Not that I've ever done such a thing myself.

 

[Elric]

While you're at it, ask about target knobs,

Yup, "TK" stands for "Target Knob"

 

[Elric]

Looks like I need to create a new thread for the Williams Streamline Front Sights.