Cooking with Geargnasher, a Soap Lube tutorial

JonB

Halcyon member
wet snow here,about 4". hovering at 34º.

Ian, thanks for the soap lesson. I guess I'll put off mixing any 666+1. I like the hot car storage capability.
I finally got around to sizing/lubing/GCing some 30 sil bullets last weekend. Now to load 'em and wait for a good shooting day.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Glad some of my ramblings have turned out to be useful. I wasn't saying don't make 666+1, I think you might like it a lot in the winter time. For some reason, it's tough to keep it from separating out, the soap wants to scum up on the top and the paraffin pushes between the microwaxes and the soap. First batch I made ended up separating badly so I heated it just enough to blend like a gravy and let it cool again. Subsequent batches I made trying to fully melt the soap like the SL series and adding beeswax and crash-cooling like you have, with various degrees of success. Best way is probably the reverse method, which is make your soda grease with soap, paraffin, and Vaseline, let it cool and gel, then melt in the beeswax and work work work the lumps out like when making Lithi-Bee.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Never had so many good friends out west of me...Now a days when I watch my weather I'm also watching yours!!! Seems I have more friends I care about out your ways!
Jim
 

Ian

Notorious member
If it isn't raining tomorrow I'm going to run a "new" concoction through my 300 BLK: Essentially it's one part Gulf Wax, one part 180°F microcrystalline wax, two parts Vaseline, two parts fresh Ivory soap, and a little castor oil in the normal proportion. Idea is to improve first-shot cold start after a long set in my subsonic loading, which has been consistently low, even with BLL. I bet it smokes like hell, but we'll see.

Finally got to shoot some of this today, discovered that the first shot flyer is related to chambering a round manually vs. the gas system doing it. First shot went into the group when I just left one in the chamber and let the rifle normalize for a half-hour at 60°F. Also had one group with first round manually chambered where the first shot hit dead center, just to mess with my head.

Smoke wasn't bad at all, but I didn't shoot really fast and it wasn't hot, so the jury's still out on the lube, but so far I like it at least as much as SL-68 and 68.1.
 

Barn

Active Member
I made a small batch of Ian"s stuff today. 2 ounces Ivory, 2 ounces vasoline, 1 ounce MW-180, 1 ounce paraffin, and 1 teaspoon castor oil (2.7%). I like the feel of the lube. Perhaps the easiest to finger lube that I have tried. This lube does not soften when worked. Seems like about every lube that I have tried gets softer when worked.

Now if the snows will give me a chance to try it in the .30/30's.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Paraffin does that. It also has the side benefit of adding some gloss to the surface and making the lube a little less sticky to handle. But handling characteristics is not why I chose the paraffin, it has more to do with C.O.R.E under pressure.

Barry Darr's lube works very well by balancing micro and macro structures with some paraffin oil. Where it fails is extreme heat and pressure, because it gets too thin too quickly. I'm hoping the extra microcrystalline wax and the high sodium soap matrix hold this mix together like they do in SL-68 in all temperature and pressure extremes, but have the advantage of more consistent "friction" that macro-crystalline paraffin can impart to lube residuals and condensates at solidus temperatures.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Ian sometimes I have to read your posts a couple times. I'd never given lube as much thought as you've inspired.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Turns out there's a lot to know about bullet lube. Here's an article on grease flow and viscosity (thixotropy) with a couple of copyrighted electron microscope images of grease thickeners showing the matrices they form. Sodium soap strands (Ivory) are about 100 times larger than lithium soap strands, by way of reference to the lithium soap image int the article http://www.intechopen.com/books/tri...low-in-lubrication-systems-and-friction-nodes

I'll try to explain my previous post a little more in-depth.

This soap matrix is the "last stand" of the lube. The oils (necessarily a straight-chain paraffin oil for the most part to plasticize the waxes at room temperature and below without causing excess slickness due to branched strands separating and flowing too easily, with castor bean oil added in small percentage to bolster the film strength) are what lets the lube flow in the first stages of the firing event, when the bullet is moving slow and swaging into the throat. If the lube remained a thick goop for long, it couldn't flow as fast as the bullet and would ball up and be left behind in the throat as a giant smear (yes, I've figured out ways to make lubes that didn't melt or thin out and that's what happened). So we need to use what we came to call "middle modifiers" to help the lube thin out more quickly. Paraffin wax has a low melt point and thins quickly under pressure. Beeswax has monoesters that do the same thing, there are many other things that do as well. Finally, at high speed we want the lube to thin out even more to keep up with the bullet speed, but not too much or it will lose the ability to seal (think lubing a bullet with diesel fuel vs. heavy engine oil). Toward the end of a rifle barrel, the speed and friction heat is very high, but pressure on the bullet base is dropping off, so lube blowout and loss of obturation is likely as the lube thins but the bullet relaxes in the bore. Sort of a catch-22. Ever hear of "running out of lube" being the explanation for leading toward the muzzle end of a rifle? Losing the lube seal at the relax point of the bullet and having a lube that just goes all watery by then is often the cause. The fix? One good one is a metal soap that ideally never melts in the barrel, but holds the fully-molten wax and oil slurry together like a sponge full of water until the bullet finally exits the muzzle. Metal soaps are actually a micro-sponge that are highly polarized. Micro-crystalline wax has a sponge matrix similar to the soap and assists in holding oil at "room temperature", but of course this breaks down as the wax melts. We want this. The different waxes, oils, and soaps make a lube that will stay in the grooves during the lubing, loading, and storage phases and still cause the lube to transform itself rapidly as required through the firing phase. But we don't want the whole mess to go completely to water in the barrel, we want that soap matrix to hold the thinned oils together all the way to the muzzle. It took a few years and a huge team effort to get this far understanding what's going on, and to find a few different recipes that will not only do what needs doing, but do it in a wider temperature range and in a more broad application window than ever before. For a good revolver lube, all you need is a micro-crystalline-ish wax (such as found in Vaseline and Beeswax) and some sort of plasticizing oil (such as the paraffin oil in Vaseline). However, such a lube falls on it's face in extreme heat and velocity or when barrels get long and you'll have to use bullets with huge lube reservoirs to even try to make up for the aforementioned "running out of lube" phenomena. You actually need very little lube on a bullet, but it needs to be the right lube for the job or at least a lube formulated to work in a variety of guns.

Sodium soap has a few advantages over lithium soap as far as bullet lube is concerned. Due to the larger-scale grease matrix of sodium soap, it makes a better 'stop leak' on the muzzle end. It also can take more heat in simple form without melting. It also seems to "dispense" or "leak" oil at a sufficient rate to lubricate without dumping it all out and causing erratic purge flyers, unless of course too much of a super-slick ingredient is added to the mix. Lithium grease can get very purgy, slippery, and provide inconsistent bore friction in hot weather or in very hot barrels, but otherwise makes a very good rifle lube additive. There are ways to fix this, but it requires adding more stuff to the lube. I like a simple mix of ingredients that balance each other out rather than a whole bunch of ingredients that modify this or that and are too complex to correctly balance out or predict unfavorable interactions with other ingredients. Another advantage of sodium soap is it appears to average out bore condition. Stainless-steel barrels and barrels with a high degree of internal polish shoot differently than plain carbon steel or chrome-moly barrels, and pitted or roughly-rifled barrels are different still. Finding a lube that works in all of them equally is pretty much impossible, but sodium soap helps to equalize the way they all shoot with a minimum of seasoning and it also helps keep a consistent bore condition without having to stop and clean periodically.

SL-68.0 has some small issues best described as bumps in the road of temperature/pressure flow throughout its functional range. One of those bumps is not having much of a long-chain, unbranched wax in the middle of the melt curve. Another is a tendency to leave a cooled residue that has a tiny bit more resistance to the bullet than hot residue. The addition of a medium-melt paraffin wax can be expected to achieve that, and also to add a measure of cold-weather, cold-barrel consistency by making the bore just a tiny bit more slippery than what SL-68 leaves behind. Essentially, paraffin is something I was hoping would kill two proverbial birds with one stone and generally improve the shooting consistency of the lube from a cold barrel in mild to cold weather without sacrificing the top end of speed or temperature by making the lube too slick.

Did that make any more sense?
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Yeah...they all make sense. I appreciate the detailed reasoning behind the lube madness.
I look forward to trying some of them when I exhaust the 7 batches of Felix.
The broad temperature range is a concern for me as we shoot in Temps from 100 to -10° and the lube temperature sensitivity issues combined with powder temperature sensitivity issues can make it tough to get on the right track with loadings that shoot consistent year round. The more variables eliminated the better.
 

Barn

Active Member
I have tried some of Ian's latest lube twice with three different rifles. See post #27 above for recipe. Ian, what are you calling this lube? SL-68.something?

I have made some of about everything lube wise that has been posted. Until now I have settled on 6661 for my #1 lube and Ben's Red for my #2 lube. After trying this lube a couple of times I may have to rethink what my #1 lube will be.

I have been using an Eagan MX3-30AR and Hoch 310-165 for my tests. Both bullets will group very close together using the same load. These bullets are similar to the RCBS 308-165-SIL. Bullets are sized 0.312". Velocity is in the 1800's range for my .30/30's.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Ian,
Truly a Fascinating Explanation!...now we all should know why this place is called " The Art & Science of Bullet Casting'!
Jim
 

Ian

Notorious member
Barn, for sake of discussion let's call it "SL-71". I've already made some similar to this (paraffin and microwax) and made notation in the thread we had going about all the nomenclature. First batch was a while ago and used a different kind of paraffin, but it didn't turn out quite like I had hoped. Gulf Wax is actually better than the batch of -71 that turned out a crumbly, oily mess with the Yaley paraffin. It's encouraging that you're having some decent initial results with it, and I am very grateful for the second opinion on some of this stuff. It helps us all when more than one person tests things and reports good, bad, and ugly so we can move forward or abandon ship with an ingredient as sometimes happens.

I shot some more of the lube myself on Sunday in very high humidity and it shot very clean and with very low smoke. Also proving to be quite accurate but I haven't done any really scientific cold-start, pre-seasoned bore tests with it.

Jim, I guess it keeps us entertained!
 

Elkins45

Active Member
Elkins, check out the Lube Quest thread, post #900. I made a simple concoction of Fluidmaster bowl ring (very stringy/tacky, similar to Everbilt wax) and Ivory soap, 3/2. Not sure why I made it, perhaps it was simple curiosity, but I did everything except shoot it. This was way back before I discovered the "secret" of using microwax and mineral oil to control c.o.r.e. The appeal of widely available and inexpensive components is very high with this concept. Stop at the hardware store, stop at the pharmacy, done. It remains one of the best-feeling lubes I've ever cooked, and it stands the freeze test, wear test, hot melt test, everything. Please keep us informed of your shooting results.

I'm not 100% sure if it was the fault of the lube or the shooter, but initial testing in subsonic 300 blackout and supersonic 308 makes me think it handles better than it shoots. I did a 1-1-1 comparison with Fryxell's molygraph lube, the Everbuilt/Ivory/Castor, and Felix. Accuracy wise, both of the others outperformed it. This was at about 45 degrees.

On to the next experiment: a multi-wax variant.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
remember that a small amount of paraffin can radically change the flow characteristics of a lube.
I only added 10% paraffin to the b-wax soy wax mix and it instantly started flowing sooner.
I'm lookin at another small modification of the moly complex lube by addition of a little grease for the LI stearate.
yeah I could add just the stearate, but I think a small [3%] addition of the grease would just a little bit more feathering ability to the lube.
it might also allow me to not use atf as the final addition.
 

Barn

Active Member
It got up to 16 degrees yesterday so the .30/30's got a chance to enjoy the fresh air. I was using the SL-71 lube again. I am impressed with this lube.
It goes through my Star at 65 degrees very well.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I ran some more tests yesterday and today with SL-68.1 vs. SL-71. My goal was to see if the paraffin in SL-71 and substitution of Vaseline for the mineral oil would eliminate the first-shot flyer that my subsonic .30 caliber rifles have been experiencing with the SL-68.1. My conclusion is it's better, but not fixed.

With SL-68.1 my first shot after 48 hours from the last drops about 1 MOA low out of the group. This has been repeatable for hundreds of rounds, and I'm pretty sure I haven't cleaned the barrel since I finished drilling the gas port larger more than 500 cast rounds ago. 24 hours gives 1/2 MOA drop, shooting later in the same day the first shot drops 1/4 to 1/2 MOA.

I cleaned the bore really well with brush, patches, and Ed's Red, leaving just a slight dampness in the bore. Two groups of ten were fired, 22 hours apart. First shot of SL-71 was again low, then the next way high, out of the normal POI. Gradually the group walked down to the same POI as SL-68.1. By seven shots it was pretty much back to normal. After sitting, the next first shot went only slightly low, but still was the bottom-most shot of a round, 1-1/4 MOA group of ten.

Now I need to lube and load 20 more in the same magazine and make some five shot groups where the last three groups will have the first shot self-loaded from the rifle...to see if there is any difference with POI between manually and automatically-loaded rounds.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
you know after the too hard fiaco of the last HOMO lube batch [i still need to do some heat/puncture/flow tests on that stuff]
i'm still working out the details of the MULTI-wax base stuff in my head.

that HOMO lube probably has 10-11 different waxes in it.
i'm really starting to think about that multi chained wax thing again.

thinking back on it
i was melting down the GEL [made from mineral oil and IVORY 3 to1] and i held the rest of the lube on the heat at the same time [while it was slightly giving off a little vapor]
the heat was high enough to melt the GEL which had to be over 350-f
i kept it melted and stirred untill all the GEL was mixed in holding everything at the higher temp for a good 5-6 minutes.
now i wish i would have stuck the thermometer in the pot.
but the heat was for sure up high enough to melt the grease mix.
i'm wondering how i didn't scorch anything especially the bees-wax now.
but the multi wax thing is sure getting me to think it [along with the pre-made GEL] might be a key to increasing melt temperature when it's all combined together.
 

Ian

Notorious member
SL-71 got made by mixing two other undocumented experiments together: One was just equal parts 180 microwax, Vaseline, and soap with the usual small proportion of castor oil, and the other was the same but with a full part of Gulf paraffin instead of the 180 microwax. I melted a couple ounces of each in a Pyrex saucepan on my hot plate, just simmered the chunks a bit. Before I knew it the stuff had gone full liquid and almost clear. Didn't have time to heat-gun it as I had to get it out of the pan right then, but it sure did go together well with little smoke and no stirring. The pre-made gel might work for getting beeswax in there.

I've been stuck on the multi-wax base for a while, I think that's ultimately what's going to make CORE settle down and enable a lube to work in a lot of different things at a lot of different velocities. Paraffin is slippery when cool, microwax is tacky, beeswax is somewhere in between. Straight microwax sometimes causes first-shot flyers, that's why I've been adding paraffin to see if I can't make the congealed residue act like hot residue, the whole key to making first shots from a cold barrel hit in the group. I used to think that oils made up CORE, and to a degree they do, but I think the wax plays a bigger role in this.

Remember Mike working with HV formulas and what he came up with? Mostly beeswax, a little lithium grease, some paraffin, and a touch of microwax "to help the first shot flyer". There has to be a balance somewhere with the waxes. Thinking now about taking some of that Navy wax I have and making a batch of Joe's lube with it just like I have been with the other waxes, maybe cut back the Vaseline (the Navy wax doesn't need much to make it soft), and compare to the straight micro/straight paraffin/50-50 lubes I've been using.

I think Jon got closer to what we want with his SL-68B than any of my formulas to date. Also, Pete has a new cold-weather lube that really gets it done and it is made from a nice wax blend with a little Ivory soap.