do deer run faster when shot with cast boolits?

[todd]

i have been shooting and hunting deer with cast boolits about ten years or so ago. i've seen them DRT(dead right there) and run off about 20-40 yards, stand there and fall over. well, the deer "jog" off, not run off. back in the day

when i used jacketed bullets, it was either DRT or RUN off about 30 -50 yards and then nose dive to the ground. all of the shots, being cast and jacketed, were either behind the shoulder or shoulder shot.

as an example, i shot a doe behind the shoulder at about 40ish yards with a 308 win and 170gr hornady rn going about 2500-2600fps and it ran off about 40+/- yards and the doe nose dived into to the turf. this year, i shot a fork horn behind shoulder at 50 yards with a 35/30-30 and 200gr fn gc(rcbs, 15bhn+/-) going 1726fps and it jogged off about 10-15 yards, stood there for about 5 seconds (all i could see was the tree and hind end of the buck and 5 seconds drags "turns itself" to 15 minutes

) and then it fell over. i would tell you about 30-40 krag and the 165gr ranch dog(1924fps/12bhn+/-) but the deer were DRT.

with a jacketed bullet, it was easily 3"+ exit wound, while the cast boolit was about 1 1/2" exit wound. and i shot them behind the shoulder(both lungs).

i think(and do i ever!!! not.

) that the report of the rifle causes the difference between jacketed and cast. when i used jacketed bullets, the rifle it would go "BOOM" and the jacketed bullet would "punch" the deer silly. when i use cast boolits, the rifle would go "boom" and the cast boolit would "slap" or "touch the shoulder" the deer and say "excuse me."

i know i'm probably wrong, but what the heck.


15 bhn was lyman #2 with a little bit tin

12 bhn was coww with a little bit of tin

 

[RBHarter]

All I have is same day reference on hogs but you can't really compare a 165 gr 300 WSM factory and 140 gr 264 WM 140 gr PP at 2900 fps vs 45 Colts at 1050 fps . The WSM took 2 hits head on lower neck into the chest but out through the shoulders ..... I got nothing ran 150-200 yd someone else dropped it . The WM hogs had 4"+ exit caves through the ribs in the skin the chest cavity was basically warm chunky jello . The quartering away it was kind of the same except the exit was down at the snout . The head and neck were covered with a loose flap of skin ...... They were pretty drt .

The 45 Colts disrupted function and left a half inch hole through 2' . The calm hogs fell in a heap and maybe moved all 4 feet . The one that was excited went about 200 yd but was huffing foam in about 60 yd .

 

[Ian]

Velocity, it's all about Velocity. That's why I powder coat and push cast bullets to near or at the full-power jacketed speed zone. If you're going to hunt with cast bullets, either go big, soft, and slow, or go big, hard, wide meplat and medium speed (handguns and large bore carbines), or put the bullet through their brain, or if you're going to hunt with .30-caliber and smaller, match your jacketed loads with speed.

I'm sure everyone will dogpile me with stories of how they've killed deer and more with .30 caliber cast bullets leaving the muzzle at 16-1800 fps and so have I.........but the results are dramatically different.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I dont push my cast hard. I have hunted with them for a long while.

But any bullet under say 1500 doesn't carry the "shock" of the same bullet over 1850. And that bullet dosent have the shock of the same bullet past 2200 fps.

About 2200 is the threashold where the bullet has a "bow wave" that emulsifies organs before impact. (Hydro static shock) Lesser velocities cannot do that. BUT , lead bullets became what they are far short if these velocities. A bullets weight and diameter where king and determined its "power".

I do just fine on every critter my bullets at sub 1900 fps have struck. Hogs a bear and deer. Some DRT most traveled a little I dont remember any passing 50/60 yards. But all have been 35+ diameters. I dont remember any being shot with smaller.

CW

 

[JWFilips]

For someone who only shoots "Low Node" target shooting ..... I'm going to have to up my ante !

Next deer season my BIL wants me to hunt with him during regular whitetail season! The only High Speed accurate loads I have are for my Ruger 243V With the NOE 105 grain Gas checked bullet! @ 2100 FPS with 16.5 gr 2400! I do not think that is good for whitetail in my neck of the woods! Too much laurels! I'm thinking I got to work on my 35 Remington or my 358 Winchester rifles this summer.....
Will be a challenge!

 

[Ian]

About 2200 is the threashold where the bullet has a "bow wave" that emulsifies organs before impact. (Hydro static shock) Lesser velocities cannot do that. BUT , lead bullets became what they are far short if these velocities. A bullets weight and diameter where king and determined its "power".

Yup. I came up with exactly 2200 impact velocity from experience and also observation that at that velocity with wheelweight-ish alloy, it absolutely doesn't matter if the bullet has a pointy nose.

 

[richhodg66]

I've shot quite a few with cast, .35 caliber and under. I hunt from selected tree stands or ground blinds along movement trails and nearly all my shots are close at unalarmed deer. On average, they don't run any farther with cast than with jacketed, and I don't nail polish mine and push them as fast as I can either, 1800-2000 FPS.

In fact, the very most destructive gun shot wound on a deer also ran farther than most I have experience with. My son shot it when he was about 12 with a muzzle loader shooting 70 grains of &&& and a Hornady XTP in a sabot, yearling doe, maybe 50 yards away. She knew something wasn't right but didn't have her adrenaline way up. The shot completely destroyed one shoulder, that leg was just flopping and the far one was probably half ruined. That little deer still made a 60 yard or so death run into deep woods.

I shot a two year old buck with a crossbow a few years ago, almost straight down shot, arrow center punched him through the boiler room from top to bottom, went into a fast death run of maybe 80 yards, I watched him fall. A few years later, same bow, same stand, I shot a mature buck that probably weighed twice what that one did, straight through both lungs, broadside at 40 yards. His head went up at the shot, he started walking away maybe ten steps and simply layed down and died.

Every deer's individual physiology is different, every shot is different. High velocity doesn't guarantee anything anymore than big slow bullets do. Use something adequately powerful, make a good shot and learn how to find deer if you have to and be thankful when you don't have to.

 

[fiver]

here is a conundrum.
deer.
7 mauser... 20 feet dead.
30-06 meh straight down, or 100 yds.
25-06 they 50-50 run [just not far] unless you put it on bone and lose the shoulder.

the big difference [besides the 200 fps window] is the construction of the bullet, and where it lands.
speed... that's a balance with the meplat in cast, and the meplat and jacket construction in jacketed.

 

[todd]

I dont push my cast hard. I have hunted with them for a long while.

But any bullet under say 1500 doesn't carry the "shock" of the same bullet over 1850. And that bullet dosent have the shock of the same bullet past 2200 fps.

About 2200 is the threashold where the bullet has a "bow wave" that emulsifies organs before impact. (Hydro static shock) Lesser velocities cannot do that. BUT , lead bullets became what they are far short if these velocities. A bullets weight and diameter where king and determined its "power".

I do just fine on every critter my bullets at sub 1900 fps have struck. Hogs a bear and deer. Some DRT most traveled a little I dont remember any passing 50/60 yards. But all have been 35+ diameters. I dont remember any being shot with smaller.

CW

i don't push the boolits hard either. the krag is the fastest velocity(1924fps) of all my rifles. my son and i have killed about 15-16 deer (dead right there) with the krag. my son has the record for the furthest kill, 173 yards (laser range finder thingy). i have killed a doe with the krag at about 130ish yards. but mostly they are killed about 30-50 yards. the 9.3x57 with 275gr wfn gc (39.0gr of imr 4895, that should be 1700-1800fps) has killed two deer DRT at about 40-50 yards, the 444 marlin and 255gr Keith type, 275gr ranch dog, 280gr wfn & lfn gc and the 300gr saeco fn gc will kill deer too. i can't remember the grains of rel7 and the 275gr ranch dog, but it was DRT at 2200+fps. the damage that it did (coww with a little bit of tin) was unbelievable. i then download it to around 1800fps and i found that the boolit didn't hamburger the meat and i download(1500-1800fps) every 444 boolit. oh, the deer(s) was either ran 30-40 yards or DRT. same with the 45-70 and 405gr pb fn (trapdoor loads).

 

[Winelover]

I'm a bowhunter at heart. Most of the deer, I harvest, are with either archery tackle or the rare muzzleloader. Those seasons fall before our modern gun. By the time gun season rolls around, I have one buck in the freezer, so I'm specifically hunting for larger racks. When I go out, it's with a Marlin 1894 carbine in 44 Magnum.

The load I used to take the last two bucks were NOE's 265 RNFP cast from 50/50 pure and 13 BHN recovered range lead. Velocities are averaging 1614 fps. Deer took off like a scalded rabbit with hit behind the shoulder. Covered nearly 200 yards with hardly any blood trail...............lucky to find the deer. Lungs were pulverized. Body cavity filled with blood. Hardly any leakage from the two 44 caliber entrance and exit holes. Not very impressed with the results of double lung shots with large caliber, large meplat cast. Since then, I started loading 20-1 alloy for hunting. Haven't yet pulled the trigger on a deer, yet, with this alloy. I'm too picky when I'm gun hunting. Does, yearlings and small bucks get a free pass on my acreage. Plus, I don't really need the meat, with a full freezer.

I have shorter recovery distances, with better blood trails from deer taken with archery tackle. Or even muzzleloaders using pure lead............that's the reason for moving to a softer alloy like 20-1 for hunting with centerfires.

The bowhunter in me, refuses to shoot to take out the front shoulder.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Thats a point not yet fully broached... WHERE to shoot as to WHAT to shoot with.

I always liked high shoulder. But majority of my shots had been sub 100yards. Many dozens of DRT shots and bullet composition didn't make alot if difference.
When I started hand gun hunting that shot was more iffy as velocity was far lower. So like my archery shots, center of lungs was preferred. Same as long range shots as the target is larger and just as deadly in the end. Larger diameters benefit this POI.

Cw

 

[Edward R Southgate]

Can't say I have noticed any difference in their departure speed when shot with cast , no . Anymore I usually just head shoot a doe or two a year . With both sons grown and on their own and a wife that wont eat any kind of game , I'm the only one at my house eating what I kill . Two is plenty for me and I like doe meat best . My shots are usually 50 yards and under so the head is an easy enough target with a rifle . I stick to 30 yards and under with a handgun . Last buck I shot was with the BLR .358 and a 180 Speer FP . Shot was facing , in the neck , took out the lungs and damaged the heart . He ran about 40-50 yards straight ahead in a J shape and piled up . Didn't run fast but it was a run . Not sure how the bullet ended up where it did from the neck shot I took but I have seen them do even stranger things .

 

[MW65]

I don't have the deer/pig/big game hunting experience like the majority of you do.... but what I've seen and evaluated, is that there's so many factors involved...

The X factor of the critters involved is so hard to determine... and that's going to skew the results. Last deer I've been party to was 30-30 with 170gr at 10 yds. Plopped over within a few feet. Have also seen pigs take a 35 and charge until a second round in the noggin caused immediate cessation of naughty thoughts upon the hunters.

I'm sure if we were to compile EVERYONE'S experience, we'll have the usual outliers, some X factor critters, and there'll be a normal distribution of drt and short distance recovery for cast and jacketed.

All that said... I'm a fan of larger diameter, fn, good velocity, and great placement with cast. Otherwise, sensible jacketed rounds placed well, seem to do the trick.

-Andy

 

[todd]

Thats a point not yet fully broached... WHERE to shoot as to WHAT to shoot with.

I always liked high shoulder. But majority of my shots had been sub 100yards. Many dozens of DRT shots and bullet composition didn't make alot if difference.
When I started hand gun hunting that shot was more iffy as velocity was far lower. So like my archery shots, center of lungs was preferred. Same as long range shots as the target is larger and just as deadly in the end. Larger diameters benefit this POI.

Cw

when the deer gives me broadside shot, i go about 1/3 of the way up, and behind the shoulder.


i have shot a buck with the 444 and 300gr fn gc (12+/-bhn) going 1624fps(2400/tuft of dacron) that was 60ish yards away from me. i accidently shot him 2/3 of way the up, behind the shoulder. he jogged about 30ish yards, stood there for about 30 seconds. then the back legs went out, followed 3 seconds later, the front legs gave out.

when i got to spot when i fired, there was no blood, but a couple of pieces of hair. i "tracked"(i could see him) him and i couldn't find any blood. when i got to the buck, there was two or three little drops of blood on the ground. when i poked the diaphragm, there was a gush of red coming out. well, that explains alot!!! i drowned him in his own blood. it also explains to me why there was no blood on the ground. the boolit went thru the buck and i'm guessing that it went into tree or the ground.

 

[RBHarter]

The ideal based on hogs with cast is to run the shot diagonally through the lungs and heart .

We will eventually get to energy deposit/exchange vs tissue disruption and just exactly how dead is dead enough . Lots of the ideology for the "versions of the truth" lay in where we learned the craft , who's ethos/ethics we learned and the laws that drove them . Maine specifically calls out the 25 ACP as a minimum deer cartridge and I know there's some 1957 Elmer Fudd dressed guy out there with a pearl grip , nickled , 1905 Pocket Model shooting deer every year . Georgia allows a hafted spear and I didn't read past that because there a whole camp full of good old Alley Oops out there re-enacting a 25,000 BC mammoth hunt .......
Nevada states "a 22 cal or larger with a minimum OAL of 2" that retains 1000 ftlb of energy at 100 yards" for rifles . Archery reads "must cast a 400 gr arrow at least 125 yd over level ground in the hands of the user" . With the single shot hand Cannons rise to glory basically a 6mm/223 and 256 WM are the bottom rung (case length no less than that of the Rem 44 mag and 24+ cal or see rifle requirements less energy) . Which is why there are so many videos that give us a glimpse of $5000 rifles with $3000 glass hooked on top and a guy that knows the 44 mag is the lightest sidearm that will dispatch a deer . I met the guy with the Jack O'Connor edition pre 64' M70 270 with the Ziess 4-16x60 shooting a 130 gr Barnes TTSX that shot the depredation doe at 75 yd 3 times and had to finish her off with his Kimber Classic 1911 45 ......and bragged about it .
The descriptions of the operators aren't intended to be an affront but rather a visual aid of general silliness .

With the above the 30-30 is both anemic and a Dinosaur slaying super mag .....

The most important thing whether one chooses a 460 Barrett with African tungsten solids or a 25-20 with a 60 gr RNFP cast is that it disrupts life functions in a quick and final way . Honestly I don't care what your preferred method is as long as at worst the animal in question ceases life functions confused as to why it's suddenly so tired after being startled . If that means you cut it's throat with USMC issued KBar tied to a stick , Meemaws purse pistol , or an anti tank rifle is up to you .

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

Thank you Tod. My spot tends to be forward and higher than your aiming spot. Whenever i get the lungs heart they almost always go some distance with little blood to follow.

 

[Ian]

Well said, Rich.

 

[todd]

Thank you Tod. My spot tends to be forward and higher than your aiming spot. Whenever i get the lungs heart they almost always go some distance with little blood to follow.

your welcome!!!

i used to do that!!! every deer i shot lke that, ran about 30-50 yards. there was little blood to track it. i think that shooting it low and behind the shoulder will let the blood come out and go on the ground to track with. i never had to track deer, i see them fall 30-50 yards away. except the 243 and the 85gr barnes x bullet. i tracked a doe 200-some yards thru mountain laurel on my knees and stooped over. i found it and while gutting it, i could see the pencil-type wound. it was like a fmj or a solid bullet. it was thru and thru.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Unless deepest penetration is called for I dont really like these copper solids.
Much killing power is lost when you do not have some bullet fragmentation.

CW

 

[richhodg66]

Unless deepest penetration is called for I dont really like these copper solids.
Much killing power is lost when you do not have some bullet fragmentation.

CW

With all the years of hunters getting it done with conventional cup and core bullets, I just can't even imagine what guys who go out and spend the bucks on these "premium" bullets who will never hunt anything bigger than deer are expecting to gain. One does not have to kill very many deer with good old run of the mill bullets to see the kind of tissue damage they do.

I've gotten lazy the past couple of years and done what little deer hunting I've done with jacketed (gotta stop that and get back to cast), used a 6.5 Creedmoor the past two years (yeah, I know), with some super cheap PPU bullets I got from Graf's and while butchering the one this year, I can't see how anybody could expect more, deer dropped on site, broadside behind the shoulder, lungs were soup, pretty much what I'd have expected from a full house .30-06. It certainly wasn't going real fast and nothing special about the rifle or the shot. I think an awful lot of hunters who are reloaders are looking for problems that simply aren't there.