do deer run faster when shot with cast boolits?

[L Ross]

A lot of us suffer from OTS,( over thinking syndrome). When I was a kid I was convinced that a .30-30 was a marginal deer cartridge. Of course at the time we were mandated to use shotguns with slugs so what empirical knowledge did I have?

Years later I shot deer with .250-3000, .257 Roberts, .348 Winchester, .30-30, .30-06, .270, 7x57, 8x57, .35 Whelen, 7.62x39, and .308 all with jacketed bullets. Then I used cast in .40-70 SS, .45-70, .45-90, .44-40, .35 Whelen, ,.30-30, .32 WS, .30-06, and 50 caliber RB, and probably a couple more.

In my most recent hunts I have returned to jacketed bullets of the cup and core variety, down loaded to no more than 2,600 fps. I don't have anything else to use the jacketed up on and my odds and ends will out last my needs.

The funny thing is, there really isn't a lot of difference in what happens after you pull the trigger. Either the critter runs a little ways, (typically less than 50 yards), or falls down at the shot, (rarely). The exception being two different deer wherein 175 grain Sierra Game Kings in an 8x57 pencilled through with zero expansion and resulted in 200 yard plus tracking escapades complete with finisher shots. Sierra and I had words, and they had a lame excuse involving the advent of the 8 m/m Remington Magnum. I personally think 8x57s outnumber 8 m/m Remington Magnums by about a bazillion to one, but if the only result was losing one customer, well so what?

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I loved those 175 Game Kings in my 8x57. BUT always took high shoulder shots. I DID recover quite a few bullets too! Never lost a critter and many was bang flops 49g 4064 so not light loading. But dont remember ever taking a lung shot always hit bone. Used the Hornady 170 rn allot too same results only no often did ya find a bullet.
I use to love a new caliber ever year. Then it was multi new calibers a year. Here in CT I hunted NY, PA, VT and Maine. Not sure why not NH as we was right in border in northern VT. I remember being told few deer in No. NH. So using different calibers in a single year was pretty easy. Last couple I have been lucky to hunt CT with this knee!!

CW

 

[Rick H]

I am a lung shooter. I figure the shot just behind the foreleg and about 1/3-1/2 up the body gives me the largest margin for error in case "Murphy" strikes. Rarely do deer or antelope drop on the spot for me. Never have they gone more than 200 yards. Most of the time with good blood trails and sometimes not so much. I have shot them with 6mm Remington, 7x30 Waters, .308W, 7mm Rem Mags, 44 mag rifle, 45/70 w/Jkt and cast bullets, 50 cal. roundballs, 54 cal. roundballs and cast bullets, 20 ga. and 12 ga. shotgun slugs. I have shot them at ranges of 15 yds. to 350 yds. Usually they act like the sound of the shot scared the bejesus out of them and take off running. Most of the time I see them drop, once in a great while it is bang flop. I have seen big deer hit with little guns drop quickly and little deer hit with big guns run further. My quickest "bang flops" were on a big mule deer at 300yds with a 7mm RemMag and 162gr cup and core bullet and little doe with a round ball. The longest runner was a medium size whitetail buck at 150yds. I hit him 3 times with a 308W cup and core 150gr. spitzer and he ran about 200 yds. (only the first shot was necessary but I didn't know that at the time).

What all this long winded diatribe is about is I don't think there is any hard and fast rule. It depends more on where you hit them than what you hit them with, and how the individual deer reacts to the shot.

 

[L Ross]

Back in the early 80's I had several deer rifles, including a couple of 8x57 Mauser sporters and a Ruger M77 .270. I loaned one of the 8x57s to a buddy who changed scopes the day before OPENING DAY! He did not realize why there were little brass strips that fell out when he took the old Weaver variable off his 1909 Argentine .30-06 sporter he bought from a pseudo gun smith we worked with at the time. The brass strips were there to correct the misalignment of the holes that had been drilled and tapped in that old Mauser. A royal cluster ensued and my late buddy ended up borrowing an 8x57 sporter from me. We had to stop at a rifle range for a last minute sight in enroute to camp.

After reading good things about the Sierra 175 Game King, and owning a chronograph, I loaded 4064 until I hit 2,350 fps, (46.0 grains), to emulate the .300 Savage used by a couple of guys in the deer camp we had been invited to. And it shot well, 1.5" groups at 100 yards with boring regularity. I had a K-3 steel tube El Paso Weaver on it with a post and cross hair.

My buddy had a nice 8 point farm country buck saunter past him at 40 yards, bam, I hear the shot from 150 yards away and think, dead deer. Deer starts to run off, bam, deer keeps going, bam, buddy shoots red oak tree, bam, gun empty. Long pause, 2 or 3 minutes, bam. Half hour later buddy comes to get me to help drag out the buck. I cannot resist giving him a ration about his shooting.

The next day, I end up with the 8x57 because my buddy has been put in a box blind over looking a potato field and he may be able to shoot 350 yards or more and wants to borrow the .270. There I am on a snowy Sunday morning, comfortable ensconced behind a couple of straw bales, my rifle protected in a home made cloth case, when a beautiful doe shows up, unaware of me perhaps 40 yards away walking broad side. I drill her tight behind the left shoulder and she takes off. I am tracking her in the scope and had extracted the empty and dropped it in my pocket. A bad habit I follow to this day. The doe is still going. Through the scope I see blood on he side and shot again at the red spot. Fully confident I watched he go over a small rise a disappear. Leaving the rifle, now in its cloth case, (it's snowing you know), in the blind I go to retrieve my prize. I no longer go after a deer without my rifle, but.....

There is 3" of nice fresh snow on the ground and I am in a nice open red oak woods where cattle have been grazed. I can see quite a ways. What I don't see is my doe. I find her tracks and a little dribble of a blood trail. I am confused. I had shot a buck with a different 8x57 using factory Winchester 170 pointed soft points and had a short trail with much blood the year previous and thought my reloads would be even better. After about 200 yards of doubt filled trailing I came across the doe, still alive, but down with her head up. I pulled out my Chiefs Special off duty gun and shot her in the head with a full power wad cutter.

When I dressed her I found my wounds had criss crossed in her chest/lungs due to the changing angles of the two shots. The exit wounds looked like a #2 lead pencil might slip though the holes. The lungs were damaged, but barely so. As I finished up I began to suspect my ribbing of my buddy may have been wrong.

Two days later in my buddy's parent's garage, we were skinning his nice buck. We were pulling the hide from the neck when a bullet fell on the concrete floor. The neck had been broken but other than rifling marks and a slight bend from striking the spine, the bullet looked reusable. My friend had fired a desperation shot at his fleeing buck and had hit it next to the rectum and the bullet broke the neck!

Sierra told me they had strengthened the jacket to accommodate the extra velocity of the 8 m/m Remington Magnum, but if I would increase my load to 49.0 grains of 4064 I should see adequate expansion. I doubted the extra 150 fps were going to accomplish miracles and opted instead to never shoot a Sierra bullet at big game ever again.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

WOW... Well I will tell ya my days with the 8x57 was before there was a 8mm Mag. At least if there was.. It was brandy new!
Mid to late 1980's.

Ironically, We say that with some 180's in a 300 savage!! To this day, I dont do 180's in any smaller then '06 and even then warm/hot loads. The 300 H&H see proper 180g use. 150's in 300 Savage, 165's in the 308.
CW

 

[todd]

i grew up hunting swPA. you rarely got a shot over 200 yards, but it is doable. i have done a 375ish yard shot on a doe with my 270. (before the laser range finder thingy) i mostly shoot the deer 30-50 yards. the avatar i shot was 12 feet with my 270.

i had a 30-30, 308 and '06 and i loaded them with 170gr hornady/seirra flat noses. the 308 and the '06 were downloaded to around 2500-2600fps. the loads would put deer down NOW. i used to load my 270 with 150gr remington round nose and imr4350, but now it is 140gr hornady sst and imr 4350. i have a couple of boxes of 7mm 139gr hornady fn that go great with 7 mauser and 7-08, but the fn is discontinued years ago.

before i started handloading, i had two rifles the 30-30 and the '06. the 30-30 was a catch all rifle using the 170gr remington, federal, pmc, winchester factory ammo, while the '06 was 180gr Remington rn factory load. some years ago, remington's 270 in 150gr rn and the '06 in 180gr rn , had strengthen the rn jacket (i think, but don't know) to come up with their ultra mags velocity. remington destroyed their reputation with that one. the bullets didn't expand with the 270 and '06 velocities.

as you can see, i luv jacketed rn and fn. i'm not a fan of nosler bt. i used to use them in my 270, but the bullet acted like a grenade. yes, it got the job done, but the wound cavity was specular!!! lung soup with chunks of heart and hamburger with pieces of bone and bullet fragments are not fer me.

the rifle that surprised me is the bubba-ed up 1898 springfield armory in 30-40 krag. a month or two before my grandpap died, he gave it to me. after cleaning out bore (i still shudder!!!!!!!) and bolt, i shot my first cast boolit with it. to this day, i'm still surprised that a 165gr ranch dog going 1924fps still DRT's deer. my son and i have killed 15 - 16 deer and they DEAD RIGHT THERE. i'm still waiting for day (using my krag) i have track the deer.

 

[Winelover]

IIRC, any Nostler BT's, under 30 caliber were constructed as varmint bullets...............thin jackets. Was only after complaints from hunters, they beefed up the jackets on 30 caliber and up. I use to shoot a lot the 180 grain 338 BT's. Never used them on deer. Only time I used my 270W was when set up over looking a bean field or and electric power line, right of way. I didn't use BT's. I prefer not to shoot edible game at long distances. Can't tell, exactly, where the animal was when you go out to look for blood. If you can even find any. That's where snow on the ground, comes in handy.

The 55 grain 243 BT's were my favorites. The model 70 featherweight would to shoot cloverleafs at 100 yards with 4350 powder.

Haven't loaded a jacketed bullet in decades.

 

[JWFilips]

While Not Cast "Bullets":
I shot a bunch of whitetails over the years using round patched balls and my custom PA flintlock longrifles!
Never lost one or had to chase one far. The longest run after hit was 40 yards! 3 were shot between 75 and 100 yards.
50 and 54 calibers with 80 grains 2F Goex. As for speed of run it is hard to tell- hard to come up with a comparison.
All were heart or heart / lung shots.
I do know the 54 cal drops them quicker than the 50 cals and is what I used for those 3 deer @ 75-100 yard shots.
( the .54 is also more inherently accurate)

 

[Rockydoc]

What all this long winded diatribe is about is I don't think there is any hard and fast rule. It depends more on where you hit them than what you hit them with, and how the individual deer reacts to the shot.

I agree with the “where you hit them” but mostly disagree with “what you hit them with”. I shoot deer in the neck, I shoot them from ambush at known ranges of 120 yards or less. I have never had to track one. The longest distance they go is two feet…..straight down to the ground. I have shot them with 222 REM Mag, 7x57, 257 Rob, 260 REM, 270 Win and 50 cal round ball, it doesn’t matter, …..if you hit them in the neck. I am not bragging regarding hitting them in the neck, it is not hard to do. If you have a gun and ammo that will shoot 3 minutes of angle or better you can as well.

 

[obssd1958]

Rockydoc,
I have some of the worst luck at times.
I have a Savage 110, chambered in 300 Win Mag, that I used for deer up on a property we used to hunt in North/Central Idaho. It was an honest 1/2 MOA gun and handload, using RL22 and 180gr. BTs. I shot a doe, across a draw, at @310 yards. She flipped over backwards into a bush that she had just emerged from, and I figured I just had to make my way over and claim my prize!
As I'm walking down the hillside, she comes stumbling out of the bush, with her head down. I drop to my knee and send another round over. The dirt splashed up about 3 feet in front of her nose. Startled, she stumbled into a trot, and then a run, down the draw. I sent another 2 rounds after her at estimated distances of 500 to 600 yards. The second of which produced a hollow thump, and more stumbling, but didn't stop her. I watched her go down the draw 1/2 a mile, and lay down in the skeleton weed on the side of the hill. I reloaded the rifle, and headed into the trees on the opposite side, and worked my way down to 100 yards straight across from her. She stood up, and I could see blood on her side, in the center of the gut. I shot one more time, and she dropped.
Figuring out what happened, once I got her all broke down - first shot hit her in the neck (not where I was aiming, but I'll get to that), second shot I saw hit in front of her, third shot hit behind her as she was running down the hill, fourth shot was a hail Mary at a broadside deer at ~600 yards and hit her in the liver, fifth shot at 100 yards, broadside, hit her in the diaphragm (I was aiming tight behind the shoulder).
After she was taken care of, and back at the truck, I took the rifle over to the hillside, and shot at a patch of dirt at 80 or 90 yards. The bullet hit at least a foot away from where I aimed. Holding the rifle up and tapping the side of the scope while looking through it, revealed broken crosswires, so it was moving wherever it wanted to.
Anyways, as to the neck shot - it went in halfway between the head and back, just above the spine (shocked the spine enough to produce the initial backflip into the brush, and stumbling coming out of the brush). The BT penciled through and only left about a half inch exit.
Unfortunately, that's my only experience with a neck shot!

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Neck shots, while often devastating, rely upon hydro static shock. If that bullet dosent impack at near or above that 2200 fps minimum your shot needs be spot on spine. Spine impact will nearly always "work" but say a 1200 fps cast bullet a inch under/over the spine, might not do much at all...

 

[Winelover]

Shot a buck in the neck with a 12 gauge rifled slug, just feet away. Came up from behind me. I was hunting off a raised platform, just higher than the impenetrable brush. Deer dropped instantly but bounced up and made it about 10 more feet. I was using a 1100 and managed to get two more shots off but missed both times.

 

[Rockydoc]

Neck shots, while often devastating, rely upon hydro static shock. If that bullet dosent impack at near or above that 2200 fps minimum your shot needs be spot on spine. Spine impact will nearly always "work" but say a 1200 fps cast bullet a inch under/over the spine, might not do much at all...

CW, are you speculating, or speaking from experience? I ( and my son and 5 grandkids) have shot dozens, collectively, and none have run anywhere. Just goes to show you how “your mileage may vary”.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

WAY too many variables.

How big is the deer? How tough is THAT particular deer? How large is our sample size (3 deer, 3000 deer?) What was the EXACT shot placement? How did the bullet behave? What was the velocity of the bullet on impact? What exact path did the bullet take through the animal, What did it hit? How hot or cold was it that day? Did the deer run downhill or uphill, or on flat ground, how far, through what type of brush, if any......?The variables are far too extensive to make any type or real evaluation.

There are some things in life that we can measure and develop some reasonable predictability, this isn't one of those things.

We can talk in gross descriptions of the outcomes and make some very general observations.
For example (and I'm totally making this up) given the same shot placement and ranges, a full metal jacket round nose 5mm 40 grain projectile travelling at 800 fps will probably result in more lost deer than a soft point, spitzer 7mm, 140 grain projectile moving at 2900 fps.

 

[JWFilips]

Rocky,
One of my brothers always swore by the "neck shot" He only used a Savage 99 in 300 Savage ( 180 grain loading) He always told me the deer goes right down most times and if it does move it only gets a few feet from where it was hit

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

CW, are you speculating, or speaking from experience? I ( and my son and 5 grandkids) have shot dozens, collectively, and none have run anywhere. Just goes to show you how “your mileage may vary”.

Nope its a fact my friend.

If you break the neck the fight is done. You can probably break with 500 fpe. Hitting it directly. But that same 500 fps, missing the spine, WILL NOT result in that bang flop. What you actually impact determines results.

What I am saying is If the velocity IS past 2200 fps you dont need to hit the spine to break it.

Have you ever seen bullet trace from a rifle? Ever wonder why you dont see it with a typical hand gun round? Yup thats a pressure wave.

 

[fiver]

i think we all grow to prefer certain shots depending on the angle.
neck shots... only from the front right under the white patch for me.

if i have an uphill side shot i prefer to go to the top of the heart at the bottom of the lungs.
i once made a straight for the heart shot [after making about 5 in a row] and only made a slice along the edge, that deer would have recovered fine and lived if i hadn't of shot it again.
it made the classic heart shot mule kick and looked pretty sick for a good 20 seconds, then took off down the angling hill away from me.

if level or i'm shooting down.
the high shoulder shot is pretty good at just dropping the animal, and it dies while it's unconscious.
you gotta have a fairly tough C&C bullet to penetrate both shoulder though.

i've tried pushing a bullet down on a deer into the lungs a few times and had the bullet hit the spine and turn at an odd angle ending up in the neck, as well as punch through the lungs and out the bottom. [get what you get, shrug]
sometimes the liver into the lungs and out right under the off shoulder is the better option you get but that's an angle thing and a lot of guys won't take it.
i've done it and the worst that happens is the deer starts walking until the blood quits pumping, unless you shoot it again then it'll run in a panic.
and usually away from the road the truck is parked on.

 

[Rockydoc]

WAY too many variables.

Very true. And, I guess I should have qualified my situation regarding variables. First of all there is not a whole lot of variance in my case. I shoot from the same stand, at the same distance, at the (relatively) same size (small Florida) deer. Since I am shooting from ambush I have time to wait until I have the shot I want, which is from broad side. Like I said, it has always worked under these circumstances. Not only for the deer I have personally shot but also for my son and his 3 boys and my sisters 2 sons and her daughter. Dozens of deer. We practice shooting 3" targets at the expected range of our respective deer stands so that we have confidence to take the shot.

I personally am now very selective about the shots I take. I absolutely don't want to have to track a deer through the woods and brambles. In Florida we have such a long deer season and high bag limits that I can be selective, passing up more shots than I take.

Like I said, your mileage may vary.
Rocky

 

[popper]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock Don't know why they use that term, it's basically hydraulic impulse like water hammering of your pipes. Depends on how much fluid is in what you hit. Seems like the recommended terminal energy required to cause it is ~1k ft-lbs. Gee where have I heard that number before. Some is result of increased blood pressure to cause hemorrhage or disrupt the neuron/nerve system. Of course spinal hits that disrupt the CNS incapacitate. Seen that often in spine shot hogs. They roll over and wiggle their feet. Taking out lungs or heart, they may run a ways till the oxygen in the muscles is depleted, then they stop. Interestingly, gut shot where most of the liquid is - doesn't often result in a rapid death. The other effect is that upon trauma, most blood is routed to the brain and lungs.