Double rifle ........

RBHarter

West Central AR
Ok purely a speculation project as at hand I have only ideas , a platform , a couple of barrels and no practical way of expressing in print my ideas to get them together .

The platform .
A lovely but age , neglect , and field service marked 10ga 2-9/16" unbranded but marked in the European style with proofs SxS . The butt stock is damaged but complete , I want to say it has a captured chip . The fore end is good and it's mechanics solid . It's been a long time since really looked it over and did the research but 1903-1905 stick in my mind . It has a tight lockup with a Dolls Head type barrel tang . Closed there's zero slop , like it won't close on a slip of thin last Tuesday receipt paper . The disqualification is the Damascus barrels they don't look bad inside but outside it's obviously a Damascus . The solder is tight on the rib ...... And so on . I really thought that I might load something rash for it like 1-1/4oz lead over a 3 dram charge of FFg ........then I thought sure as shooting it would come all undone just behind the forestock hanger and bend the important parts just past salvage .

It's too ugly to wall hang as art but otherwise a solid center fire platform . I doubt there's any real collector value so no pain there . If I looked long enough I'm sure there's a guy out there .

I have a pair of .451 cal 24" GM raw gunsmith blanks , a story of their own . I was trying to figure out the math for several things the "good idea fairy" brought me . Among other things I learned was why the the 760 Rem worked with only aesthetically more metal in it than the 410 870 ....... It's because there is actually more bolt face load in a 12 ga than in any of the 06' family . The math does this weird thing like the Taylor KO math where a 300 gr 45 Colts delivers a value higher than a 260 gr 454 .
Because of the thrust/breach face load math if the 12 ga is high then the 10 isn't getting any lighter . Even as a short BP round it will match everything ever loaded in a 2-3/4 12 ga .
While the 460 S&W might at it's extreme be hard on the action the barrels will be safe and I don't know really that it would hurt anything held to something like 45-70 TD levels of MV . I would think at 12# plus a 14-1500 fps MV 535 gr Postell would be pretty tame at nearly 3" OAL it shouldn't be a big deal to get that . 454 can't stress it and I get 6-7 cartridge choices .

Regulation will be an issue but I think I can engineer that out with 2 barrel bands and a wedge block arrangement on the one that also holds the front sight .

All of this proves I have too much time alone in my glass box .

Thoughts , ideas , suggestions , machine suggestions , "don't do it you'll shoot your eye out kid" .

On an unrelated note I'd also be content to trade it off for a naked action or a beater 110 Savage and do the barrel swap there .
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
OK, that's a lot of info.

The Damascus barrels really do limit the gun's current usefulness but I'm not sure to what extent.
One of the great benefits of our hobby is that casting/reloading gives us a lot of options that other firearm's folks don't have. One of those advantages is you could make safe BP loads for that shotgun and have something useful and maybe even downright fun. Damascus barrels in themselves aren't always dangerous, just limited in the pressure they can work with.

WIthout seeing the gun, I cannot comment on its value but I think your view that it is not a collector's canadate is likely accurate. There were a lot of those old side by sides made and just because it's old doesn't mean it's valuable. However, it may still have value as a useful old gun as it is.

Once you start modifying that into a double rifle, there's no going back. So, if that doesn't work, you go from having an old SxS 10ga. to having a collection of expenseive parts that does nothing. My inclination would be to ignore the two .451" barrel blanks you have and put the time and effort into making it a decent looking wall hanger OR a decent old fun gun.
I think your possession of those two GM barrel blanks is overally influencing your path. What would you do if you DIDN'T have those barrel blanks? Would you still be thinking double rifle? You may be looking to find an application for those barrel blanks more than you are looking to save an old shotgun action. Just my $0.02 worth.
 
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CWLONGSHOT

Residing in New England
There is a guy Maxx Bear, who I follow who is building a 45/70 from a old dbl now On uTube. He has not posted now for couple weeks but as of last has not finished.
He sleeved a shot gun i to a Hornet rifle previously. Nice home work shop stuff. He does fine work and lets you/us follow along.

He delt with regulation and making extractors as well as fitting rhe barrel inserts.


CW
 
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Red Bear

Member
i have a 45/70 and a 30/30 made from old shotguns. both work great. i bought liners from chazel. these can be inserted with o rings or epoxyed in place. want to do a double but shotgun i bought was in such nice shape i just couldnt change it. both shoot good as i can.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I have in the past looked at much information on building doubles . I spent lots of time soaking up drillings and paradox barrels too .

12 ga liner's occurred to me as well .

It's not so much the possession of the barrels as I have a couple 06' barrels , a 270 , and a 6mm . A brand new 257 Roberts waiting for an LR Mauser too ....

It's not that I need to have a double or really that the parts are there as much as it is that an unserviceable tool is just not terribly useful .......

I'm at that awkward reciprocal of the teen years I think where everyone was right about everything and the hard medical reality of my time line is really starting to be a thing .
I probably ought to dig through the stacks and look for the study notes and just find it a new home along with a dozen or so others .

No nothing terminally threatening just the flow of time and the medical direct relationships of the last 3 generations .
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I know that you already have the shotgun. But I would think that a 20ga SxS would be more correctly proportioned for a double rifle.
 

david s

Well-Known Member
From what I've read the 20 gauge is the closest in proportion for most double rifle calibers. Only one I've ever seen was a Ruger 20 gauge over under that had a second set of rifle barrels.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I know that you already have the shotgun. But I would think that a 20ga SxS would be more correctly proportioned for a double rifle.

I have a Boito 12 OU I've considered off and on also . It will probably get by fine with just the pre choke swell removed .

I have 20ga for a Handi with a 30-30 on it and the 20 ga barrel is extra ugly . I have considered cutting down the 270 barrel for a rimmed 6.8 or something . 6mm/243 doesn't excite me much but the barrel was free .

Damascus barrels are mostly straight cylinder tubes a 1000-1100 fps RB is probably plenty of destruction in a 10 ga . 72-74 cal ball ?

Herco in a 10 ga with cards and felt ........
Back to BPI I guess .
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Just went looking for new 10 ga cases .......

Turned brass are $11.00 ea sold per each , so loaded ammo looks pretty good at only $2.50 a shot in 10 round boxes . Might have something to do with the passive search for 10 gauge stuff for so long .
 

Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
I have in the past looked at much information on building doubles . I spent lots of time soaking up drillings and paradox barrels too .

12 ga liner's occurred to me as well .

It's not so much the possession of the barrels as I have a couple 06' barrels , a 270 , and a 6mm . A brand new 257 Roberts waiting for an LR Mauser too ....

It's not that I need to have a double or really that the parts are there as much as it is that an unserviceable tool is just not terribly useful .......

I'm at that awkward reciprocal of the teen years I think where everyone was right about everything and the hard medical reality of my time line is really starting to be a thing .
I probably ought to dig through the stacks and look for the study notes and just find it a new home along with a dozen or so others .

No nothing terminally threatening just the flow of time and the medical direct relationships of the last 3 generations .
I seem to remember there being a book, more of a pamphlet really, out there years and years back on making a double rifle out of a shotgun. Does that tickle anyone else's memory?

If I could build one, it would probably be something more like a 25/35 over a 20 gauge, or a 250 Savage over a 16 ga. In a side by side a 35 Whelen on a 20 ga frame would be neat.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
Years ago, my Dad and a friend went to NYC for some event and while there, went to Abercrombie & Fitch. In the gun department were all kinds of high end dangerous game rifles and such. But one caught my Dad's eye. It was a double rifle, ornately engraved with gorgeous wood chambered in .22 Hornet. It had a price tag that would have probably bought you a house back then. He was telling guys about that rifle and scratching his head over it for years.
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
You will not be disappointed with a .76 RB chugging along at 1100 fps. Packy-durms and Hippos were well plowed with those for some time.

I can write 95 grains of 2F Goex will propel a .685 RB out of our 30" 12 gauge Fox at over 1500 fps. took a big mass of oak boards to finally stop one. These were cast of WW +tin as penetration was the goal to get through the very thick neck armor on very large crocs out on some Amazon tributaries.
 

JustJim

Active Member
I had a Stevens double that had been converted to 45-70: The original barrels were bored out, cut to stubs, then rifle barrels inserted. Even with the short barrels, that monstrosity was the heaviest, most-awkward rifle I've ever owned.

As for the 10 bore, a .735" ball cast of WWL, propelled by BP to about 1,000-1,100 fps, will usually shoot side-to-side through a buffalo. I once shot a bull in the chest with my shortened Bess using a load that gave me those ballistics. The ball went straight, exiting behind the rib cage (the bull was about 20' away, above me on a slope).

I use loads that give me similar ballistics in my 11 gauge Belgian SxS double. I've taken deer, wild pigs up to 400#, and one incredibly stupid feral Longhorn. Never recovered a ball, and never needed to track more than about 20'.

RBHarter, your double sounds like my dream gun for pheasants*. You might want to give it a try before anything drastic, "light" loaded tens usually give fantastic patterns with loads having ballistics equivalent to 12 gauge field loads.

*Heck, maybe I could even hit a dove or 2. . . .