Heat Treating Steel

JonB

Halcyon member
Springs:
I can't count the number of times I needed a shorter spring for some reason, with a unique end, like a hook or eye (for a screw). This hamfisted fella (me) grabs the torch, without knowing any details about heat treating, and then bend whatever unique end I need. This is usually after I tried bending it without heat and breaking it off, LOL.
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PS, remember when I was selling the Lyman 45 Handle upgrade kit? There was a spring option I offered. I was never able to find the correct length, So I bought longer ones, and cut 'em ...and bent a new end ;)
 
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Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
There's a product called "Cherry Red" that is supposed to work like Kasenit, but it doesn't have the arsenic or whatever else in it that made Kasinit so good. I haven't tried Cherry Red but have seen utoob demonstrations of it and it seems to actually do the trick for a light case.
Brownells sells the replacement and I bought some. Works well. I use it for harding things like M-die slugs.
 

JustJim

Well-Known Member
"Cherry red" is basically the same stuff, without the sodium ferrocyanide. Kasenit was ~46% sodium ferrocyanide; you can buy the stuff mail-order. If the color of the end-product is important to you, it might be worth it, otherwise there seems to be little difference.

KeithB, your writeup would have saved me about 5 years of reading and experimenting in my late teens/early 20s! I didn't even know enough to know what I needed to know, if you know what I mean. I knew I could make a spring from a hayrake if I did it "just so"--magnet and all for temps, quench in used motor oil, anneal by submerging in the same oil and flashing it off 3x with a torch--but had no idea why this was. Let's not get into the voodoo of hardening frizzens, or color-case hardening with cyanide. . . .

I worked my way through big parts of a 6th edition of the Machinery's Handbook, bits and pieces of the Starrett and B&S apprentice manuals, and HTRAL, and poring page-by-page through Richardson's Practical Blacksmithing. Then I finally knew enough to know what questions I needed to ask to figure out what I was doing and how to do what I wanted.

Thanks for posting it!
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I just snapped this photo of the books on a shelf in my office. My Grandfather was Chief Signal Engineer for the NYC Railroad. He died in the '70's. Came here from France at the turn of the 20th century. These books are a wealth of vintage knowledge.



 

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Ian

Notorious member
Let's not get into the voodoo of hardening frizzens...
But why not? :rofl:

I just went through this with an L&R frizzen. It was too soft and ate the edge off of flints in just a few shots. I ended up ruining it with water quenching (it has cracks on the face that look like a section of onion or tree rings) but it sparks great now and hasn't broken yet. I ordered a replacement just in case. Supposedly you fully harden the thing and draw it back to a light straw on the face (375F for an hour or so), then jam the frizzen in an apple or potato up to the bend as a heat sink and use a hot torch like OA to dance heat into the pan cover and toe until it turns blue up to just through the bend and shows just a shade of blue on the bottom of the face. The problem I had was this particular frizzen won't make a single spark at light straw. Had to reharden it and leave the face full-hard. Trial and error stuff.
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
Kasenit
I have used it mainly for frizzens that are to soft to spark well & not ready for a "shoe".
So far all the frizzens have not needed a second application. But none have passed 100 sparks yet. A couple will this year.
 

JustJim

Well-Known Member
Sometimes a frizzen (old frizzen, either original or early repro) just won't harden as the surface doesn't have enough carbon. So you replace it, or case harden it, or just say to heck with it and half-face the frizzen and be done with it. Frizzen hardening--old school backwoods style--is voodoo. Souds simple: pack it in bone meal, crimp a metal can around it, and cook it in a fire.

Except. . . . first off, you have to make sure your fire is hot enough but not too hot. Then the whole "crimping of a metal can"--you want it airtight, nobody ever told me that. A Prince Albert can won't work, the frizzen won't fit (and if it is a tiny frizzen for a pistol lock and does somehow fit, it won't be hardened because it is in contact with the sides of the can. What works really good is a 1 pint paint can--unless it burns through the side. One of those fancy tea canisters with the slip-fit lid works well too, and the metal is a little thicker.

And bone meal--like a gardener uses? Too fine. Crushed bone doesn't work either, but coarse raspings from a bone work--but not a fresh bone, and not a cooked bone; try to find one from a cow that died about 2 years ago, with the bones aging in the pasture so the grease is gone. It takes a lot of bone to rasp down to tightly fill a 1 pint can. And it works better if about half your "bone meal" is actually bone charcoal--OOPS, now you need about another pint of bone meal. Ever made charcoal from bone? The smell is awful, and gets everywhere.

So you mix about half-and-half of your dry bone raspings and your stinky bone charcoal, until it looks like grey dirt. Fill your can about 1/3, tamp it slightly, bring the level up to half. Set your frizzen in the can, centered away from the sides, and press it into the fill. Bring the level up to 2/3, tamp lightly (don't shift the position of the frizzen). Fill the can, press it down, re-fill, repeat a couple times. When you put the lid on it should slightly compress the fill.

"Cook it in a fire" is a joke. Push your coals in a pile in the middle of your firepit, and make a hole big enough to set the can in. Put one of your fire irons next to--but not touching--your can. Shovel more coals on top, add some wood to your fire because you need more coals. That fire iron is your "thermometer". If it gets sparkly-white-hot, too hot. Dull red, too cold. Keep it just under cherry red for about 30-45 minutes, then let it cool. When cool, dump the ash and your frizzen from the can. Clean up the frizzen, double-check with your lock to make sure it hasn't warped, then harden and anneal it.

I've done several frizzens like this, and it always works (we won't discuss the failures that lead up to this process). You know what else works? Anneal the frizzen, grind it clean, fit a piece of a file to match the curve, rivet it in place and sweat it on with 50:50 solder. The soldering heat will anneal the file new frizzen face just about right. I haven't rasped bone since I learned to do this.

About 90% of the time, on a new lock that won't spark you can just re-face the frizzen on a 6"-7" grinding wheel (depends on the size of the frizzen). Don't take off too much. Sometimes the surface is de-carburized in the hardening process. If that doesn't work, re-harden it quenching in oil. Not hard enough, try again but quench in brine. Once it is hard, anneal and polish.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
It's a wonder that our predecessors managed to turn out anything that worked!
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
But then back 200 years hardening a frizzen was so common a kid saw it going on regularly.
Plus blacksmiths were very common in a established village.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
But then back 200 years hardening a frizzen was so common a kid saw it going on regularly.
Plus blacksmiths were very common in a established village.
While a lot of folks were more capable of doing the more pedestrian blacksmithing chores themselves, a village couldn't come to be much of a village without a blacksmith.

Much, if not most of a lifetime as a machinist, it's interesting to me to imagine producing precision parts or just plow or wagon parts with nothing but tools powered by muscle and only if I'm ridiculously lucky, water.

I do love watching the documentaries on the katanashi (Japanese sword maker) of 200 years ago. They had to know something about geology, botany, chemistry, thermodynamics, metallurgy. They would invest weeks, months or as much as a year or more of their life into fabricating one single sword. On top of that, they were putting years of accumulated knowledge and skills into that piece.
Stands to reason that people saw a sword as having a life and spirit, as the katanashi invested a significant portion of his own life in it. After that, the sword's new owner lived, ate and slept with that sword. It continued to be a piece of the katanashi, but became a piece of the new owner too.