How snug
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
First off, I'm not Rick or James, my revolvers are for short-range fun and for serious backup work, so keep that in mind. Mine need to function first, shoot to point of aim second, a whole bunch of other things, and somewhere near the end I worry if they only shoot 4" at 25 yards from the bags. If I need to hit something small beyond that I grab a rifle. That said.....
I load them all so they fall into the chamber, even after it's been shot a bunch and has a nice carbon ring. Fouling seems to accumulate to a certain point and then maintains because it washes out as fast as it builds. If I wasn't worried about rust I'd never bother to clean cylinder rings out.
Done the tight thing, makes for sore thumbtips in single-actions and doesn't improve accuracy noticeably. Tried several fitment approaches in revolvers that were good enough to notice the difference at 100 yards and found case tension, alloy, and primers had more effect than the exact fit of the bullet in the throats.
I load them all so they fall into the chamber, even after it's been shot a bunch and has a nice carbon ring. Fouling seems to accumulate to a certain point and then maintains because it washes out as fast as it builds. If I wasn't worried about rust I'd never bother to clean cylinder rings out.
Done the tight thing, makes for sore thumbtips in single-actions and doesn't improve accuracy noticeably. Tried several fitment approaches in revolvers that were good enough to notice the difference at 100 yards and found case tension, alloy, and primers had more effect than the exact fit of the bullet in the throats.
Reason I ask is leading. I have a tendency to get cute and go for a perfect fit. Sometimes that leads to bullets growing a bit after sizing and they are too snug. That leads to shaving a bit of lead on firing and I get light leading in the force cone. Size .001 smaller and the leading stops.
You would think I would learn but I keep trying to get too close.
You would think I would learn but I keep trying to get too close.
Brad, I also do as Ian describes. Or that is what I intend.
Buddy of mine and I call it the "bounce" test. Each and every round of match ammo is dropped into the cylinders. If they don't bounce and have to be pushed in they are marked with a big black X and used for sighters or practice. Frustration=shooting clean to the last bank of targets, then tying up your FA because of an uncooperative round.
Not a revolver but a revolver round, 357 in a TC. I neck size them so to speak. Case is sized just enough that the length of the bullet is all that is sized. I shoot the RCBS 180 Sil gas checked, federal GM match SRP, large dose of lil gun, starline brass. Recipe was developed in an FA by Todd Spotti over at LASC. Not for the recoil sensitive or muzzle blast sensitive. Shoots way way better than it should in my SS factory TC barrel.
Jeff
Buddy of mine and I call it the "bounce" test. Each and every round of match ammo is dropped into the cylinders. If they don't bounce and have to be pushed in they are marked with a big black X and used for sighters or practice. Frustration=shooting clean to the last bank of targets, then tying up your FA because of an uncooperative round.
Not a revolver but a revolver round, 357 in a TC. I neck size them so to speak. Case is sized just enough that the length of the bullet is all that is sized. I shoot the RCBS 180 Sil gas checked, federal GM match SRP, large dose of lil gun, starline brass. Recipe was developed in an FA by Todd Spotti over at LASC. Not for the recoil sensitive or muzzle blast sensitive. Shoots way way better than it should in my SS factory TC barrel.
Jeff
I've never had them so tight that they had to be pushed into the cylinder. That mght be from front bands not entering the throats due to short loaded rounds.
Well, I have had one case where I had to push them in. My GP100 with the MP 359640 sized .359. Size them to .358 and no more problem. That is actually the first thing that got me thinking about all of this.
Well, I have had one case where I had to push them in. My GP100 with the MP 359640 sized .359. Size them to .358 and no more problem. That is actually the first thing that got me thinking about all of this.
Ian
Notorious member
One trip to the range with ammo sized to make a precision machinist happy a month before and none would chamber on range day cured me of being cute like that. I re-grouped and read the little note "Tom" at Accurate put up on the site about revolver bullet fitment. You can go a little bigger than throat diameter with your sizing, provided your bullet design has a self-aligning front band that doesn't actually engage the parallel portion of the throats when seated and crimped at your preferred trim length. In other words, fit it like you would an autoloading rifle bullet. Thing is, if the cylinder cones aren't all bored the same depth, and Ruger seems to be terrible at ever having a matched set of six reamers in their cylinder reaming machine, this works against you a little because the jump is different for each hole, and that DOES have a noticeable effect on consistency of grouping.
So I tend to prefer a bullet that has enough front band to poke on up into the parallel portion of the cylinder throat, and I make sure it has some wiggle room.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I have a situation that I actually force the ammo into the cylinders.
I push by thumb and then turn the cylinder to seat the rounds the rest of the way.
I have to turn the cylinder all the way around every single round.
it happens to be a Ruger. [41 mag Hunter model]
it's also my most, well not the most [my DW 44 mag is my most accurate if I have the 10" barrel on it] but it's awful close if I do the shove and seat routine.
hmm now you go me thinking about my DW in 357 it shoots very very well with slip N slide ammo it likes.
I have some slightly oversized 477's I could tumble lube...
dang it I got other stuff to work on.
I push by thumb and then turn the cylinder to seat the rounds the rest of the way.
I have to turn the cylinder all the way around every single round.
it happens to be a Ruger. [41 mag Hunter model]
it's also my most, well not the most [my DW 44 mag is my most accurate if I have the 10" barrel on it] but it's awful close if I do the shove and seat routine.
hmm now you go me thinking about my DW in 357 it shoots very very well with slip N slide ammo it likes.
I have some slightly oversized 477's I could tumble lube...
dang it I got other stuff to work on.
James W. Miner
Active Member
I like .0005" under throats for most guns. Boolits slip through of their own weight in a clean gun.
My SBH has .4324" throats and .431" boolits shoot great. In fact one of my most accurate WLN is closer to .430".
I have never found a little smaller does any harm. I refuse to shoot over size so throats become size dies.
My SBH has .4324" throats and .431" boolits shoot great. In fact one of my most accurate WLN is closer to .430".
I have never found a little smaller does any harm. I refuse to shoot over size so throats become size dies.
Agree with James, the throats of a revolver are not sizer dies. Rearranging the bullet and probably non-concentric just to get it to the forcing cone is something I have never been able to wrap my mind around. I like a mild snug fit for match ammo, they won't fall through of their own weight but if I can't push it through with a pencil it's too tight. For general plinking and defensive revolver loads they must pass the plunk test. If it doesn't go plunk when dropped in the chamber it's too tight.
.
.
Sadly, revolver throats make excellent size dies. The bullet just isn't happy about it. That causes me to see leading in the forcing cone and accuracy suffers.
I shot 100 rounds thru the 624 last week. No leading at all and accuracy was far better than I got previously. These bullets were sized .001 smaller. That little change made a world of difference.
I shot 100 rounds thru the 624 last week. No leading at all and accuracy was far better than I got previously. These bullets were sized .001 smaller. That little change made a world of difference.
James W. Miner
Active Member
Very good. Sometimes you can twist your toes so bad, shoes don't fit!
Things are easier if you don't worry.
Things are easier if you don't worry.
Exactly!
I tried to get too close and ended up going over a tiny bit. Lead bullets don't like that.
James W. Miner
Active Member
I have learned a lot about revolvers and found even groove size will shoot even if the throats are large. My groove is .430" and has stayed the same since 1980 or so with over 81,000 heavy loads. The old SBH shows no measurable wear, no end shake or side shake over factory. I have some sand blasting on the edges of the cone but it has meant nothing.
Not to say a tad over groove is wrong but to fuss over throats as long as they are not smaller then groove has left my concerns.
I go 3 years or more without cleaning the bores but I keep the cylinders clean and the pin and hole. I use STP oil treatment on the pins, ratchet and front bushing. Best lube EVER and will keep wear away. RCBS case lube will work and I swear it is STP anyway.
Never shoot a dry gun. I found gun oil is not good enough and STP will cushion recoil on parts.
Steerage at the cone and the boolit pulling the cylinder in line to the bore is where it is. Very tight cylinders are no good and bullets/boolits will wear the throats, cone and rifling off center very fast. You will grow to love the little cylinder movement.
Most guns are good and it is what you feed them and what you do at the loading bench, the dies you use, the powders, primers and even the lube.
It took a few years and thousands of tests to prove almost all you read is WRONG. Many found me correct and I see my methods repeated more and more and it is good. I want you to shoot better, I want nothing.
You CAN shoot 1" targets off the rail at 100 yards with a revolver.
Long ago they searched for the 1 moa revolver. Special custom and custom barrel, spent thousands. Shot many loads and the finally got a 1" group. I kind of choked since I had many at 1/2" at 100 already from out of box revolvers.
I got my new BFR in .500 JRH, did the trigger, changed the hammer spring to a 26# Wolff, mounted my Ultra Dot and shot at this shotgun shell at 100 yards. I missed the first shot by 1/2" and hit the second shot.
This is a 50 yard group, not sighted, just working loads.
Not to say a tad over groove is wrong but to fuss over throats as long as they are not smaller then groove has left my concerns.
I go 3 years or more without cleaning the bores but I keep the cylinders clean and the pin and hole. I use STP oil treatment on the pins, ratchet and front bushing. Best lube EVER and will keep wear away. RCBS case lube will work and I swear it is STP anyway.
Never shoot a dry gun. I found gun oil is not good enough and STP will cushion recoil on parts.
Steerage at the cone and the boolit pulling the cylinder in line to the bore is where it is. Very tight cylinders are no good and bullets/boolits will wear the throats, cone and rifling off center very fast. You will grow to love the little cylinder movement.
Most guns are good and it is what you feed them and what you do at the loading bench, the dies you use, the powders, primers and even the lube.
It took a few years and thousands of tests to prove almost all you read is WRONG. Many found me correct and I see my methods repeated more and more and it is good. I want you to shoot better, I want nothing.
You CAN shoot 1" targets off the rail at 100 yards with a revolver.
Long ago they searched for the 1 moa revolver. Special custom and custom barrel, spent thousands. Shot many loads and the finally got a 1" group. I kind of choked since I had many at 1/2" at 100 already from out of box revolvers.
I got my new BFR in .500 JRH, did the trigger, changed the hammer spring to a 26# Wolff, mounted my Ultra Dot and shot at this shotgun shell at 100 yards. I missed the first shot by 1/2" and hit the second shot.
This is a 50 yard group, not sighted, just working loads.
James W. Miner
Active Member
I make my own molds so groups are shot with my boolits. I have never drawn a boolit on paper with all the funny numbers and angles. I cut the cherries on the lathe by eye, made GG cutters and the CG cutter. I went against all current thoughts of drive and base bands. I file the ogive on until it looks good. Made my mold vise myself. I have made GC boolits but all my big bores use PB. I learned mold expansion the hard way and can cast almost perfectly round boolits. Not a single boolit ever cast has shot better then mine even from the most expensive molds.
Very tight cylinders are perfect as long as the revolver is properly made. I have revolvers with ZERO play in the cylinders, they lock up tight and perfectly aligned with the bore. If you have a sloppy revolver it has to have side play in the cylinder because the revolver wasn't machined accurately enough to be aligned.
I have many, many thousands of rounds through these revolvers and ZERO throat off center wear, ZERO forcing cone off center wear and ZERO rifling off center wear. I have won state and national long range championships with these revolvers and there is still zero side play or end shake in them.
There is truth in what your saying for SOME revolvers James but it is certainly not an across the board accurate statement for all revolvers.
.
James W. Miner
Active Member
True. It is always how they are fit and machined. Not common and I have seen very, very expensive guns that were bad. Sure not Ruger territory but they do work.
Line boring always confused me too. A fixture is screwed into the frame to start the holes. But you can't damage the recoil plate either. Threads wear after so many frames and the pilot can wear as does the cutter. Then the cylinder is chambered from the other side. Now a barrel is screwed in that might not have a perfectly centered bore or barrel threads can be off. Tolerances add up along the line. A line bored gun can be worse then a Ruger gang bored.
If you have a good one, I am going to call it LUCK.
Line boring always confused me too. A fixture is screwed into the frame to start the holes. But you can't damage the recoil plate either. Threads wear after so many frames and the pilot can wear as does the cutter. Then the cylinder is chambered from the other side. Now a barrel is screwed in that might not have a perfectly centered bore or barrel threads can be off. Tolerances add up along the line. A line bored gun can be worse then a Ruger gang bored.
If you have a good one, I am going to call it LUCK.
Pure luck that every single one of the numerous FA's in several calibers I've handled and shot were machining master pieces. Yep, just dumb luck. Truth is that with all the FA's in silhouette today I've yet to see a bad one, a few bad shooters but not a single out of spec FA. How is that for LUCK?
.
.
James W. Miner
Active Member
It is a question of economics. Even Ruger prices are out of sight and I could never buy an X frame.
It would be fine to buy perfect but many shooters just can't.
I have to make what I can afford work.
I have BFR's but had to sell off some very good guns first.
It would be fine to buy perfect but many shooters just can't.
I have to make what I can afford work.
I have BFR's but had to sell off some very good guns first.