Is there a 45 Short Colt? Is there a 45 long Colt?

[Rick]

Here is an article by Jim Taylor that will shed light on this debate.

The Long & the Short of the .45 Colt

By: Jim Taylor​

The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Elmer Keith, Sixguns, page 285)

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As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges head-stamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.

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The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put away now - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The head-stamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ... BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The head-stamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.

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These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

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I can visualize someone walking into a hardware store around the turn of the last century and asking for a box of .45 Colt's. As the clerk pulls down a box the customer says, "Not the short ones. I want the Long Colts!" and the name ".45 Long Colt" came down to us as a "user-applied" name, not a factory name.

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While I can't prove it, I believe the usage was common since Colt had factory cartridges like the .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .41 Short Colt and the .41 Long Colt.

I pulled one of the .45 shorts apart and weighed and measured it. The case is 1.1" long. The powder charge was black powder, approximately 28 grains. The bullet weighed right at 230 gr. and was lubed with a white chalky-looking substance. I fired one from my Ruger 7 1/2" barreled .45 and it went through the chronograph at near 750 fps.​

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The following week I went out in the hills and called up a nice large coyote and shot him with the .45 short. He ran to within 10 feet of me, responding to the call. I pulled the gun up and shot, hitting him up through the right shoulder and spine, dropping him instantly. The little pointy bullet did not damage the pelt at all. I was able to tan the hide and make a nice looking wall hanging from it. ​

He was probably the last critter on earth ever killed with a short .45 Colt!

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- Jim Taylor

 

[RicinYakima]

The generally accepted theory from the cartridge and reloading tool collectors is that the "short" case was made for the Model 1909 .45 Revolver of the US Army and USMC. They were replaced by the Model 1911 pistol prior to 1917 and had been sold for surplus. The cartridge was loaded with smokeless powder and to get reliable loads, they needed to reduce the volume in the case. Frankfort Arsenal produced cases have a little wider rim, but commercial cases are exactly the same as the ".45 Colt's" for the 1873 revolvers. The Model 1909 was made to chamber all of the .45 government purchased cartridges (including black powder) prior to the 1911's .45ACP. Hope that helps as it is reasonable even if we have not found Marlin reloading tools marked anything but ".45 Colt's.

 

[Eutectic]

Scan from page 181 of Elmer Keith's "Sixguns".........

Pete

 

[Brad]

My Marlin and Ruger BH get fed with what I call 45 Colt. No long for me.

 

[358156 hp]

45 Colt was never identified by Colt as "Long". I don't think any of the full length Colt cartridges were ever identified as "Long" by Colt. The full length cartridges were simply "Colt". The shorter cartridges were identified in most of the Colt literature I've seen as short (whatever). I've come to believe that the actual Long Colt thing was started by the ammunition companies in an effort to more accurately identify their products to the rather under educated, semi-literate public of the times. I came to this conclusion while researching my really early Colt "Pocket Positive" chambered in .32 Colt. The smaller cartridges were a different issue entirely since ther were mostly centerfire versions of older rimfire calibers. Marlin used to offer rifles that included interchangeable firing pins for either rimfire cartridges, or centerfire Colt ammo. What a confusing period!

 

[Ian]

You know how to start a lively discussion, don't you Rick?

There is only one .45 Colt, the cartridge adopted by the US Government. The conjecture I tend to side with is one is that soldiers invented the term "short" in the 1880s to distinguish the .45 Schofield ammunition, for the top-break cavalry revolvers, from the SAA fodder.

Short .45 Colt ammunition was prolific? Really? One relic, antique box made by one manufacturer over a hundred years ago remaining as proof of its existence doesn't qualify for a cartridge designation in my mind. Nothing was ever chambered exclusively for the "short Colt", nor load data or reloading brass has ever been available so far as I can tell, so it's a unicorn, and though may have actually once existed, hasn't in over a hundred years and by no means indicates re-naming of a cartridge some 30-40 years its senior.

".45 Colt" for me, just like it was to begin with, thank you very much.

 

[fiver]

for a long time it kind of irked me when people called it the long colt.

but then a few years back I was digging through some real old magazines and seen a picture of the end of a brown box with black writing on it that said 45 short colt cartridges on it.
it was the end flap off a box and that is all I remember it saying, however the flap appeared very similar to the same type of boxes I had seen 45 acp ammo in from before and during WW-1.

 

[Eutectic]

A new early second generation Colt SAA .45 Colt was my first handgun. I was so young my father had to buy it for me. Sometime maybe 10 years later in the late 60's the word "Long" came to my ears! I didn't like it or think it correct. I do believe it was a misnomer to follow the .32, .38, and .41 Colts so named. When the first early Colt military revolver came to being old writings said it shot .38 Colt ammunition. The loads Elmer was shooting in the barbershop (circa 1912) sounds more like .45 CB Colts!

The modern generation changes things at times. Many years back 10 boxes of .22's came in a 'carton'. I still use that word and consider if more correct than 'brick'!!! Just no class to refer to ammo with such a term.

And that's my 'long' and 'short' of it!

Pete

 

[358156 hp]

I have held 45 "Short Colt" factory ammo in my hand, and would have bought them if the had come with a box. The ammo was exactly as Jim Taylor described.

 

[Brad]

SAAMI doesn't list a 45 Long Colt, just a 45 Colt.

 

[Rick]

You know how to start a lively discussion, don't you Rick?

That's the idea, give the grey matter something to chew on.

There is only one .45 Colt, the cartridge adopted by the US Government. The conjecture I tend to side with is one is that soldiers invented the term "short" in the 1880s to distinguish the .45 Schofield ammunition, for the top-break cavalry revolvers, from the SAA fodder.

The Schofield round has a different rim diameter and different length. Seems from the reading I've been doing those original 1855 top break revolvers did indeed fire the "45 Government".

Short .45 Colt ammunition was prolific? Really? One relic, antique box made by one manufacturer over a hundred years ago remaining as proof of its existence doesn't qualify for a cartridge designation in my mind. Nothing was ever chambered exclusively for the "short Colt", nor load data or reloading brass has ever been available so far as I can tell, so it's a unicorn, and though may have actually once existed, hasn't in over a hundred years and by no means indicates re-naming of a cartridge some 30-40 years its senior.

".45 Colt" for me, just like it was to begin with, thank you very much.

Seems Ian didn't read the Taylor article carefully or look closely at the picture of the "Winchester factory box" Nowhere did Taylor say anything was marked "Long Colt". Nowhere on the box of Winchester ammo does it say long or short, the box clearly says "45 Colt Government" and Taylor said both case head stamps on the short and the standard cartridges are stamped "45 Colt Government". See the picture of the two cartridges, one is clearly "shorter" than the other.

Nothing was named or labeled Short Colt but again those 1855 break open revolvers did fire the 45 Government.

No one is suggesting renaming anything, just a discussion on possible origins and use of the terms for this cartridge.

Taylor said this cartridge is on page 306 of "Cartridges of The world". I wonder which edition of the book he has, I have the 12th edition printed in 2009 and on page 306 is the "4.25 Liliput Auto". The 12th edition lists the 45 Colt on page 326 under two names, "45 Colt" and "45 Colt Government".

In the book "Handloaders Manual Of Cartridge Conversions on page 591 is listed the "45 Colt Long" (no mention of a "Short Colt") with a case length of 1.285" and rim diameter of . 512". On page 593 is the 45 Schofield with a case length of 1.10" and rim diameter of .522".

Working the grey matter it seems a reasonable assumption that maybe Winchester head stamped the 45 Shofield as 45 Colt Government to capitalize on the then new 45 Colt SAA revolver. That would explain Taylor's box of factory 45 Colt Government that are clearly shorter.

 

[Eutectic]

or look closely at the picture of the "Winchester factory box"

I've reread Elmer's comments in both locations in "Sixguns" (page 181 and 285) Ol' Elmer had quite the memory and every spot the .45 "Short" is mentioned Elmer says "Remington" brand.... I wonder if Remington's load was different that this "Winchester .45 Colt Government"?? Taylor mentioned nothing of a hollow base bullet ....only weight and lube. Elmer is explicit about a hollow base still visible in the floor. 750fps should go deeper than that?

Pete

 

[fiver]

it might not go all that deep with a real light, hollow base.
it wouldn't be too hard to just make/swage an 'outer shell' that weighed around 150grs, from pure lead for a gallery load.
3.sumthin grs of powder would get 750 or so from something that light and provide pretty decent accuracy.

I have shot a bucket full of 165gr rnfp's in the 45 colt on top of 4.5grs of clay's and I'm still amazed they are accurate.
they are wider than they are long and there just ain't that much gription length down the side.
a big hollow base would surely give more drive area I bet those loads were pretty accurate.

 

[KHornet]

Good posting Rick! Have been seeing this argument
about short and long colt for years. Like Brad said,
I shoot 45 Colt. It is what it is!

Paul

 

[RBHarter]

My understanding is that there is a 45 Colts and a 45 S&W . Possibly the origin of the short and weak . The S&W was for the Schofield Revolvers . They needed the larger rim to function reliably with the S&W Schofield revolver ejector .

The long thing probably came to be from people asking for 45 ammo and being S&W or Colts and responding with the long ones , eventually clerks started asking S&W or the longer Colts .

The 45 S&W was the result of the 44 American being a heeled bullet and the Russians wanting the 44 cal but with an inside the case lubed bullet . At that point the 44s were still .440 . Both were for the break top Schofield revolver . The American was a through drilled cylinder and with the 44 Russian the .429 was born . America being what we are the 44 was was expanded to .450+ for the 45 cal with the 44 rim probably being shared with the 30-30 . The 44 American bullet was already .440 so it was it was just it was just a bump and a hollow base inside lubed bullet to get a 45 "just like Colts" . Sort of .

I spent a little bit of time reading up on the 45 S&W Schofield vs Colts .

 

[KHornet]

Good info RB!

Paul

 

[Rick]

Digging deeper I think I have discovered where the confusion comes from. There isn't a 45 Long Colt (surprise huh?) and there isn't a 45 Short Colt (yep another surprise there). There are/were actually three different cartridges and they are all listed in Cartridges of The World.

The three are:

45 S&W Shofield - page 302
45 Colt Government - page 326
45 Colt - page 302

The S&W Shofield was introduced in 1875 and in that year it was adopted by the Army. Also in 1875 the 45 Colt was introduced and also adopted by the Army. That's were the problem was, two revolvers in use with two different case lengths and two different rim diameters. The Colt was too long to chamber in the Shofield revolvers and the S&W Shofield rim diameter was too large to chamber in the Colt revolvers. The Army had big logistic problems getting the right cartridges to the right army units in different areas of the then frontier so came up with the 45 Colt Government, a cartridge with the rim diameter of the 45 Colt and case length of the 45 Shofield, a cartridge that could be fired in both the colt SAA and the S&W Shofield. Ballistics of the 45 Colt and the 45 Colt Government were similar.

45 S&W Shofield commercial loaded ammo was available until 1940. Commercial loaded 45 Colt Government was available from the 1870's until the 1930's. The 45 Colt is of course still available today. With demand from the Cowboy Action Shooters Black Hills Ammunition is currently producing 45 S&W Shofield ammo duplicating the original Army ballistics and Navy Arms is producing 45 S&W Shofield revolvers.

The factory cartridges and the box in Jim Taylor's article are exactly what the head stamp and box say they are, 45 Colt Government and not 45 Colt as it seems Jim thought. The 45 Colt Government was available commercially from the late 1870's until 1930 and no doubt stores stocked both the 45 Colt Government and 45 Colt's. Someone asking for 45 Colt's would need to specify 45 Colt or 45 Colt Government and no doubt asked for the "long Colts". And that as the saying goes . . . . Is the rest of the story.

 

[Brad]

Sounds like a 45 Charlie Foxtro to me.
Worse than hearing a guy at the store ask for 300 mag ammo without knowing if it it Win or Weatherby not to mention a short mag.

 

[Ian]

I knew about the Colt Government cartridge from my own reading on the subject, but had no idea it was ever produced commercially for the civilian market at all or for such a long period of time. Thanks for that tidbit, Rick. I own the same book and did some digging as well (7th edition, around page 250).

While thumbing through Mr. Barnes' book, I discovered something else interesting: Did you know there was a .45 ACP short?

 

[Rick]

Did you know there was a .45 ACP short?

Yes there is, it's because the Italian Government uses the 45 ACP and civilians cannot own military cartridges so they shortened the case a bit and are now legal.