RBHarter
West Central AR
I'd like to tie this together with this , http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...p-of-bhn-velocity-and-expansion-with-cast.46/ .
With that done implores the question just how much energy (or whatever number base you choose to use) is needed to kill a critter . To me it is obvious that a 55 gr TNT HP 22 cal at 3500 fps will most certainly convert a pack or kangaroo rat to a chunky mist anywhere inside 300yd . A similar thing happens with a 115 gr 25 cal Sierra HP at 3400 fps to jackrabbits on out to at least 400 yd . I don't even want to look a the assorted burrowing squirrels as they are oz to 10# . What mistifies the digger the size of a pack of Virginia Slim's might only knock a chunk off the ol' shadow seeker .
We know or at least should know if we are reading this that how a bullet functions at impact has a giant impact on its terminal effect . We should know the if a 50 pointy bullet "pencils" through between the lungs and liver there is a high probability that a pigmy goat will survive the hit while a 400# deer with 25-35 hole just above its elbow behind the shoulder will go 100 yd and lay down and die .
I would never advocate either of the above but they work right ? With the 750 gr BMG you got your 2 holes in the goat and even at 1000yd it's carrying way over the "minimum" 1000# .
This discussion should be fixed on what we really need if for the sake of agreement we have a caliber hole in and out and 25% of the tissue in the chest cavity of an ideal broadside hit is disrupted . The end game is the same with the 1000ftlb goal whether it is arrived at with a partition style double dia 22 or a 300 grain 45 cal wadcutters .
I sight the 1000# rule because that is what is required for big game by letter of the regulations here in Nevada for rifles . They must be center-fire , 22 cal and have 1000 ft-lb @ 100 yd .
It has become obvious that much less than that is required with proper placement even on really hard to kill things . Millions of deer have fallen to as little as 35# , American Bison too . I would imagine even moose have fallen to the lowly long bow ,not the hopped up string rifles but a rock and a stick and twisted sinew . I'd also bet Hiawatha had a pretty good idea that if the pointed stick poked a hole that sprayed blood instead of oozing the animal quit running sooner .
The real question is how much does it take to reliably poke that hole and do the damage needed to make the critter stop running in a timely manner. I've killed 5 pigs of a semi wild type in a sort of wild environment . I've seen them take some brutal hits from massive energy / penetrative cartridges and keep going shock alone should have done the deed but it didn't . I've seen them just fold up with a solid but honestly marginal hit . At 17 nominal steps with a shot in an inch or below the spine exiting at the off elbow . It continued to run 200+ yr . Later that afternoon another grazing along with a lower but similar hit through and through at 47 steps it went 6 steps if you count all 4 hooves before falling dead . The 3rd just a few minutes later took a full on just inside the right shoulder and cutting the left ham dropped on its honches and fell over very dead at a range I will identify as powder burned . According to my handy phone app that 45 Colts load had a whopping 525-580 ft-lb at 1000 fps on 2/3 the last suffered a 625 # hit. When we butchered I found a fish hooked 30 cal bullet in a shoulder all healed up .
On the same trip an inexperienced shooter landed a good hit with a bad bullet choice. While it was a lethal hit it wasn't instant nor clean and required a follow up .
Based on a compilation of some 20+ hogs from 60-200 lbs I can safely say that 525 ft-lb delivered via a 45 cal hole is enough .
Death is pretty fast with high-speed meat wreckers as well a 26 cal with an expanding bullet delivered some 2200 ft-lb with a caliber sized entry and eyeball guess 20 calibers exit . Lots of wasted energy . Lots of margin for error . 1 hog taken with that rifle was shot quartering away with a face exit only a dime sized hole . All of the bullet used up . Several were taken with 30s and expanding bullets I don't have numbers for those but they were 308/06' class cartridges . All delivered expected results except 1 which just baffles me because CNS disruption should have occurred from both shots . 2000+ # up ended a 160# hog and caused it to stagger with no exit . The low head hits left both bullets spent in the chest cavity but without enough to finish the job .
Based on this one might conclude that modern post 1965 cartridges just aren't very good for killing hogs . They simply offer too much of a good thing .
I don't even know what the point was that I was after .
Maybe it is that how the terminal energy is delivered is more important than how much . Maybe it is that failure can occur even when it's in the right place and there is enough to do the job . I wonder if I'm trying to tell myself something . Which often happens when I dive into something like this .
Soon my whole hunting strategy will be turned upside down . The 200 yd zero for a 300 yd minimal hold over will be wasted and result in over shot game . So if it will hit to sights at 100 it should do good enough .
I guess a terminal energy discussion is useless without a bullet shape/performance discussion ..........
With that done implores the question just how much energy (or whatever number base you choose to use) is needed to kill a critter . To me it is obvious that a 55 gr TNT HP 22 cal at 3500 fps will most certainly convert a pack or kangaroo rat to a chunky mist anywhere inside 300yd . A similar thing happens with a 115 gr 25 cal Sierra HP at 3400 fps to jackrabbits on out to at least 400 yd . I don't even want to look a the assorted burrowing squirrels as they are oz to 10# . What mistifies the digger the size of a pack of Virginia Slim's might only knock a chunk off the ol' shadow seeker .
We know or at least should know if we are reading this that how a bullet functions at impact has a giant impact on its terminal effect . We should know the if a 50 pointy bullet "pencils" through between the lungs and liver there is a high probability that a pigmy goat will survive the hit while a 400# deer with 25-35 hole just above its elbow behind the shoulder will go 100 yd and lay down and die .
I would never advocate either of the above but they work right ? With the 750 gr BMG you got your 2 holes in the goat and even at 1000yd it's carrying way over the "minimum" 1000# .
This discussion should be fixed on what we really need if for the sake of agreement we have a caliber hole in and out and 25% of the tissue in the chest cavity of an ideal broadside hit is disrupted . The end game is the same with the 1000ftlb goal whether it is arrived at with a partition style double dia 22 or a 300 grain 45 cal wadcutters .
I sight the 1000# rule because that is what is required for big game by letter of the regulations here in Nevada for rifles . They must be center-fire , 22 cal and have 1000 ft-lb @ 100 yd .
It has become obvious that much less than that is required with proper placement even on really hard to kill things . Millions of deer have fallen to as little as 35# , American Bison too . I would imagine even moose have fallen to the lowly long bow ,not the hopped up string rifles but a rock and a stick and twisted sinew . I'd also bet Hiawatha had a pretty good idea that if the pointed stick poked a hole that sprayed blood instead of oozing the animal quit running sooner .
The real question is how much does it take to reliably poke that hole and do the damage needed to make the critter stop running in a timely manner. I've killed 5 pigs of a semi wild type in a sort of wild environment . I've seen them take some brutal hits from massive energy / penetrative cartridges and keep going shock alone should have done the deed but it didn't . I've seen them just fold up with a solid but honestly marginal hit . At 17 nominal steps with a shot in an inch or below the spine exiting at the off elbow . It continued to run 200+ yr . Later that afternoon another grazing along with a lower but similar hit through and through at 47 steps it went 6 steps if you count all 4 hooves before falling dead . The 3rd just a few minutes later took a full on just inside the right shoulder and cutting the left ham dropped on its honches and fell over very dead at a range I will identify as powder burned . According to my handy phone app that 45 Colts load had a whopping 525-580 ft-lb at 1000 fps on 2/3 the last suffered a 625 # hit. When we butchered I found a fish hooked 30 cal bullet in a shoulder all healed up .
On the same trip an inexperienced shooter landed a good hit with a bad bullet choice. While it was a lethal hit it wasn't instant nor clean and required a follow up .
Based on a compilation of some 20+ hogs from 60-200 lbs I can safely say that 525 ft-lb delivered via a 45 cal hole is enough .
Death is pretty fast with high-speed meat wreckers as well a 26 cal with an expanding bullet delivered some 2200 ft-lb with a caliber sized entry and eyeball guess 20 calibers exit . Lots of wasted energy . Lots of margin for error . 1 hog taken with that rifle was shot quartering away with a face exit only a dime sized hole . All of the bullet used up . Several were taken with 30s and expanding bullets I don't have numbers for those but they were 308/06' class cartridges . All delivered expected results except 1 which just baffles me because CNS disruption should have occurred from both shots . 2000+ # up ended a 160# hog and caused it to stagger with no exit . The low head hits left both bullets spent in the chest cavity but without enough to finish the job .
Based on this one might conclude that modern post 1965 cartridges just aren't very good for killing hogs . They simply offer too much of a good thing .
I don't even know what the point was that I was after .
Maybe it is that how the terminal energy is delivered is more important than how much . Maybe it is that failure can occur even when it's in the right place and there is enough to do the job . I wonder if I'm trying to tell myself something . Which often happens when I dive into something like this .
Soon my whole hunting strategy will be turned upside down . The 200 yd zero for a 300 yd minimal hold over will be wasted and result in over shot game . So if it will hit to sights at 100 it should do good enough .
I guess a terminal energy discussion is useless without a bullet shape/performance discussion ..........