Lee 309-113 in a 30-30?

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Has anyone been able to get the lee 309-113 gr "soup can" to shoot well in a 30-30?
I have tried many "Low Node" loadings without much success......Similar to my experience with the little Lee 314-90 Gr SWC. Can't get them to shoot accurately "Low Node" Now when I push those little 90 Grain SWC 's around 1400 fps I get good groups!
I'm thinking the 113 gr may need the same treatment. The weird thing is, I have fired the Ranch Dog 32 acp 75 grain bullet with 3 grains BE a bunch of times and they are very accurate at 50 yards!
I'm thinking that the 2 lee bullets are a strange abnormality in "Low Node" Shooting!
 

300BLK

Well-Known Member
5.4gr Solo 1000 under NOE 311008 shot nickel sized groups at 50 yards and held accuracy to at least 200 yards from a microgroove 336, no GCs involved

I started around 4gr and worked up until accuracy went completely away. 5.4 seemed to be the best load after repeated tests.
 
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Jeff H

NW Ohio
A while back, I bought a LEE 2C C309113 from Michael and removed the GC shank, making it 118 grains.

I use it exclusively in the 30-30 at 1200 fps, or so - whatever 7.5 grains of Unique will push it. I lube these with 45/45/10 and size to .310" for a 24" MGM Contender Carbine barrel.

To use @300BLK 's standard - nickel-sized groups at 50 to 65 yards. I've not shot them any farther than that. Any time I'm having trouble with a gun shooting well, I get the 30/30 out and shoot some of these to see if the "problem-gun" is the problem, or if I am the problem. Doesn't seem to matter whether I'm in t eh groove or not, this thing shoots those bullets well, no matter what.30-30 Targets (Copy).jpg

EDIT: Added photo. That ten-shot group was shot in a hurry as it started to rain and I had a bunch of stuff to pick up. The two wild shots were all on me.
 
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Intel6

Active Member
I shoot that bullet in 30-30 but push it harder in both my 14" T/C barrel and my Marlin 336BL. I PC and GC them and load them with 16 grs. of 2400. That gives me 1,800 fps in the T/C and just under 2K fps. in the 336BL. Smacks the steel targets well and is a mild recoiling plinker.
 

Maven

Active Member
Let me add that the Lee 113gr. "soup can" is accurate, more so if it wears a GC and thus, allows higher velocities. I have a plain based one thanks to Ben and it's ~ 2 m.o.a. with 4 - 6 grs. of the original CLAYS. I may still have the gas checked version and it just plain shoots in a variety of .30cal. rifles, metrics included.
 

richhodg66

Well-Known Member
Dad liked that little Lee bullet and had a bunch of them cast up I'm going through in various things. He was a fan of the Ruger .30 Carbine revolvers and I think he poured a lot of those bullets through a couple of them.

While going through his eclectic collection of stuff, I found a coffee can of loaded .30-30 rounds of his with a note that said 5 grains of Clays and what I am sure is that bullet. So I shot some through a little H&R rifle I set up for my youngest boy to deer hunt when he was little and it was accurate at small game distances, so I took it squirrel hunting one evening and it worked well. Still have some of those loaded rounds, I need to get back to that.
 

Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
Are these as cast or sized and what diameter are they? Any crimp involved? What powder are you using and is it at all position sensitive? Better accuracy at higher pressures says to me that the pressure is changing the bullet's shape/diameter to the positive.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Are these as cast or sized and what diameter are they? Any crimp involved? What powder are you using and is it at all position sensitive? Better accuracy at higher pressures says to me that the pressure is changing the bullet's shape/diameter to the positive.
Not sure if you're asking @Fiddler or in general, but it brings up an interesting point on the three LEE C309113s I've used - one 6C, belonging to a friend, and two 2Cs of my own.

All three of these "309s" cast .313" bullets, making it very versatile. I've cast for the a few different 30/30s with it, sized to .310" and it shoots great. I was also able to shoot them as-cast/unsized in a CZ527 7.62x39 Carbine with similar accuracy and the same powder charge.

I cast up and PC'd a bag of these (my plain-base version) for that same friend to try in his various 32 Mag and 327 Mag revolvers, but have not heard any range reports. Hes one of those guys with more irons in the fire than day in the year, so who knows when...

If I had to rely on my 30/30 alone, I could get by with this bullet and the last version of the RDO 31016RF (also shown in the above pic) and have all bases coverd. If I had to get by with just the 7.62x39 (which I wouldn't), I'd use this bullet and the RDO 313165RF.

The little LEE C309113RF covers a lot of ground and would be an interesting one to HP as well. I bought two of these from Michael at the same time, but after an embarrassing attempt to HP one of them on my own, with my crude tools/cruder skills, I am left with one. The HP attempt was an affordable faux pas, as I only gave $20 each for them, but the one I have left is in "protected" status and neither will I, nor anyone else mess with that one. This bullet makes me look like i know what I'm doing - as a caster, hand-loader and marksman.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I needed to write this all down for a friend anyway, so figured I'd throw in the details here too. Not saying this is the way, the truth and the light, just how I use these bullets. I'm neither winning, or even shooting matches and my standards may seem low to others, so this is offered as information to add to the data-base on the topic at face value:

BULLETS:
Bullets cast of '70s through 90s wheel weights, air-cooled;
CASUAL, passive inspection at various points in the process, up to seating the bullet, and with a very low attrition rate;
"Aged" by virtue of the fact that it takes me a while to get things done;
Coated VERY lightly with 45/45/10* as soon as I get a chance after casting;
Sized in a LEE push-through die, base first to prevent flash, or "fins" forming on the base when going down .003" in one pass;
Coated VERY lightly, again, with 45/45/10* as soon as I get a chance after sizing;
Bagged or bottled for future use.

*Though lubes/coatings are a very personal-preference thing - for the record, MY 45/45/10 is the consistency of a medium-hard lube in the bottle, so I have to warm it to get it to drizzle from the spout. Further, I warm the bullets just enough that they won't melt their way through a heavy-duty quart-sized ziplock bag. I finally measured my rate of application on another bullet recently and determined that I used almost a teaspoon for 800+ 148 grain, 38 Cal WCs which was a bit "thick." You have to smell the bullets to determine if they've been lubed. NOT sticky. CHEAP. FAST. EFFECTIVE to 1800+fps.

LOAD:
Fired brass, lightly neck-sized in a LEE collet-type neck sizing die - just enough that the bullet cannot be rotated in the case or pushed back into the case by fingers;
Case-mouth flared JUST enough to not pervert the sharp, flat base;
Bullet seated to pretty much align the crimp groove with the mouth of the (trimmed) case - which will vary for others, so I didn't measure;
7.5 grains of Unique has been my go-to charge - have not tried anything else. If I had, it would have been 5.5 grains of HP38/W231, but if it don't shoot with Unique, I don't keep it, so Unique it is. I have not noticed any position-sensitivity using this charge, but have shot it mostly from a make-shift "bench."
I weigh each charge, because Unique has had a tendency to suddenly start climbing or dropping in charge weight as dispensed from the RCBS hopper with the small drum.
Cases are sitting nose-up in a loading block and loaded into the chamber of the Contender Carbine with no particular care or consistency other than that of casual efficiency.
CCI 200 Large Rifle Primer, although I would shamelessly substitute any large rifle primer in this load, for this rifle, even if they were mag primers;
Primers seated by hand, using my last old LEE hand-primer with the round dish.

GUN:
Nothing fancy - just a stainless, "easy-open" Contender action with a minute bit of trigger work, "plastic" TC stock set, non-tapered, stainless, 24" MGM 30/30 barrel with .308" groove diameter and 1:10" twist. "Vintage" Redfield 2-7x32 with duplex cross-hairs, cheap/light/aggravating Weaver rings, cheap, aluminum Weaver base. Fore-end barrel channel relieved to not touch anywhere and brass washers were inserted between the fore-end lugs and fore-end contact points to "free-float" the barrel. Please, no rotten tomatoes on this - I KNOW that I DON'T know what I'm doing and it may just be "voodoo," but it's working and I'm leaving well enough alone. Anyone who knows better, feel free to warn others that I'm full of beans. Feeling won't be hurt here.

I probably could be a lot more picky about several of the steps listed above, but the difference in equipment cost and time would not net a discernible difference in groups shot by ME. Besides, if everything goes into one hole, no one will believe you anyway. However, being able to shoot groups like this bullet does, with so little extra fussing is a testament to the bullet - and of course the other components and the gun too, so it's all good.

EDITED to add twist rate - THANKS, @popper
 
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JWFilips

Well-Known Member
Good stuff here!
My mould drops .313" also Mine has one gas checked & one plain base ( also thanks to Ben)
I see my old targets say i sized them to .310" But now after a few thousand shots with it I know my Savage 340 shoots better with .311' bullets
So I think I'm going to start playing with it again after the info above
Thanks
 

Missionary

Well-Known Member
We have not shot a 30-30 in near 30 years. All ours were rebored and actually no regrets as we have numerous other caliber 30 rifles. Especially a nice 300 Savage.
But we may have a 30-30 barrel Contender barrel. Plus I think we may yet have a Marlin 336 barrel...... Next time north gonna have to look.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
May depend on your twist more than pressure. Rotational inertia approx equal to mass and square of the radii. To get inertia up, need to go faster, fps or twist. The BC also changes with fps, it is pretty crappy at low fps. IMHO it's in the rifled round ball territory.
I always thought the Lee soup can was blunt on both ends.
Never shot that one but the 110 hornady and I pushed it faster. Got to seat it way out to get into the bore correctly.
Edit: rewrote.
 
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CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I WISH my Lee Soup Can would drop castings at .313". .311" is as good as it gets with my 2-cav, so it is too skinny for my 32/20's. It has done yeoman work while checked and run at 1400-1800 FPS in 30/30 and 30-06. I haven't tried them in low-node loads, since it has a gas check shank. Checks I save for when they are needed. The Burrito Shooters made much use of the Lee Soup Can, and it won more than its share of Tuesday pots.

Bret brings up an interesting point. One bullet I have tried (#313631) shoots BLEH at 900-1000 FPS, but boost it to 1300-1400 in the 30 Carbine BH or 327 Fed and it becomes a tackdriver. Pressure sizing? Dunno, but the bore is the final sizing die in any event and that is what happens with #313631. FWIW.
 
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Jeff H

NW Ohio
May depend on your twist more than pressure.
Glad you said that.

I missed that point when I listed what's going on with the ones I'm shooting.

24" MGM Contender Carbine barrel with a 1:10" twist.

May help someone else, may not, but an important factor to have omitted.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
Powder coat them if they're too small.

I use the 100-grain 2R plain base and the 31116 sans check, powder coated and sized .310" in my .30-30s with a pinch of Titegroup for 1K fps and they are a delight to shoot suppressed (yes, I have two .30-30 leverguns with threaded muzzles). Accuracy isn't stellar but they're minute of soda can at 100 yards and minute of racoon brain at 0.2 yards which is all I need them to do.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
I WISH my Lee Soup Can would drop castings at .313". .311" is as good as it gets with my 2-cav,.........

That sucks. If it were any other bullet, I'd get along fine with t hat and accept it, but this ONE LEE design, which seems so versatile, might be much less so if it cast smaller. NOW, I regret having buggered the other one. Surely, I could have cast twice as many with two 2-Cs going, but it would have been even nicer to share with someone who hadn't gotten one sized large.

This design is an anomaly among LEE moulds for me, in that most of the ones I gave up on entirely were abandoned because they cast too small.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Glad you said that.

I missed that point when I listed what's going on with the ones I'm shooting.

24" MGM Contender Carbine barrel with a 1:10" twist.

May help someone else, may not, but an important factor to have omitted.

Both my Savage 219s and every Win 94 I've seen sport a 12 twist while Marlin went with a 10. I used a 10 twist blank to rebarrel an 1899. It doesn't make much difference at full power.