Load Changes

[9.3X62AL]

I am in hot pursuit of a snubnose 38 Special caliber revolver for a Get Off Me Pocket Torpedo Tube. Despite my old shop's adoption of bottom-feeders in 1987 (9mm and 45 ACP at first, 40 Short & Weak c.1993) the shop never stopped authorizing the 38 Special. At the time the 40 S&W was added, the agency also authorized the 357 Magnum. Needless to say, I was in Hog Heaven from 1993 until I retired in 2005.

The upshot of all this is that it has been since 1987 that I did away with the 38 Special as a personal carry caliber. The load still being used in 2005 was the same as it had been when I started in 1977--the W-W 110 grain +P JHP. That number has been out-of-print for several years now, and I heard a few quals sessions back that the State contract was offering the Rem 125 grain +P SJHP for those agencies still using the 38 Special as goblin repellent. I tried to keep current on all of the range trivia as a matter of habit, but wasn't certain just what diet was kosher for the 38s any more. While the main sideiron has some 300+ possible options to select from--most of which are bottom-feeders--the old 2" 38 retains MUCH FAVOR as a back-up and off-duty choice, 29 years after it was pronounced as being prehistoric.

This morning I got a surprise from the Old Shop. As far as 38 Special goes, "Carry what you want". Gift horses like that don't get looked at in the mouth, so I thanked the staffer and hung up the phone. Sure as h--l wish they would make that same decision for the 9mm!

Anyway, I ordered a couple boxes of 158 grain +P LSWC-HP for the 38 Special(s) on hand and/or about to find space inside the safe.

 

[KHornet]

Al, I believe the 38S w/p+ loads regardless of bbl length is an ideal pull the trigger, no jam, get off me gun.
Also consider it to be an excellent CC for small framed female carriers. Bullet choice/Load choice is an
individual preference issue. Think your choice would be excellent. OTH my personal preference would be
a soft cast HP weighing about 125, and at +P levels. Good luck and keep us posted.
Paul

 

[9.3X62AL]

As hobbyists we spend an inordinate amount of time fussing over The Stats a given load allegedly generates. I know I surely used to, but as I dodder into dotage my satisfaction comes from loading accurate ammo that doesn't line the barrel with alloy and does its best job on the intended target--paper, rat, jackrabbit, deer, whatever. I do use BruceB Softpoints on game animals, and those will be aboard my deer guns this year.

Factory loads are far more limiting, and for social interactions they are probably the best idea. One less argument to make with a reviewer. That FBI Load can be easily duplicated at the bench for practice ammo supplying, and I DO shoot my carry guns frequently.

 

[KHornet]

Can't argue with your statement regarding factory loads and social interactions.
The issue there would be the factor of the lawyer!!!!!

 

[freebullet]

I did some penetration tests from an lcr & m85. I saved some deer shoulders placed them in front of wetpak & even the powder puff loads -140swc @750 @7yds went through the medium to small deer shoulder bone. The jacketed & plated wouldn't expand even on the bone until they were moving way faster.

Another experience with a final shot on a deer showed the Jax 9mm+p+ did not expand on the broadside of the doe. All the way through same size entrance and exit.

Like k hornet I prefer soft lead hp's however, for a person in the industry you may at some point be more likely to have a need to penetrate a car or other barrier before the target. In those situations the over penetrating Jax might be advantageous.

 

[9.3X62AL]

Not actually "in the industry" any longer--retired in 2005. I do encounter former clients once in a while, and to date all of those meetings have been uneventful. I treated folks fairly, and that has paid off so far. It only takes one idjit with an axe to grind to ruin your day, though.

I am still uncertain what prompted the agency to go so lax on this particular policy guideline, a venue in which STRICT adherence has been the norm for close to 40 years. Maybe--the 38 Special ammo was so hard to find for such a long time that the shop said "Fill 'em as best you can". The caliber is basically relegated to back-up and off-duty gun status these days, so it doesn't see much actual field usage. Carried much--shot in anger practically never.

 

[Pistolero]

Sanity and freedom of choice on firearms issues in California? What will they
think of next?

Here is my handload approximation of that load.

This was tested in wet newsprint, which has always produced identical expansion
and half the penetration when compared with factory loads to 10% ballistic
gelatin done by professionals. So, add about 3/4 inch to the front of the bullet,
and you have 5" x 2 = 10" equivalent penetration.

I keep five of those in the S&W 342 at all times. Shoots to point of aim and makes
2" groups at 10-12 yds. Given the sights, DAO and light weight, this is as good as
I can do.

I have no problems letting my wife carry that when she chooses, although the recoil
in a 10.5 ounce revolver is definitely "sporty".

This was developed because no commercial ammo, including Rem 158 HPt LSWC,
which was (IIRC) pretty inaccurate, like 12" or so at 25 yds.


Bill

 

[KHornet]

Bill, that is a lovely picture! Thanks for the posting!
Paul

 

[9.3X62AL]

Bill, thanks a bunch for that photo and data. We all must be on similar wavelengths here, 'cause I was going to "bracket" 4.5-5.0 grains of Unique under #358429 (mine cast at 163 grains in 92/6/20 and see how they stack up vs. the uber-expensive factory stuff when clocked. I have about 400 rounds with #358429 on hand, these with 4.0 and 4.5 x 231. Haven't run them in a 2" ever, they get ~825 and 875 respectively in a 5" Model 10. More playtime and data-mining......so hateful (NOT!)

 

[Winelover]

Five grains of Unique is my standard charge for 38 Spl (158 cast), as well as 9mm (125 cast) for practice loads in "belly guns". For social work they are stoked with Hornady's Critical Defense, respective, offerings.

 

[Intheshop]

Didn't read all....

Killed a really nice buck with a .38 sp load.No excuses,no apologies.

Took a total of 15 minutes in a tree stand.

My Diamondback.38 is a daily carry.Just sayin.

 

[Ian]

That reminds me, I took a spike with a K-frame out of my truck window using a 358665 and 3.2 grains Bullseye (if I remember right, it was the load I made and shot gillions of in .38 for many years, so that's what would have been in the cylinder at the time). I had come home from work and driven through the front entrance and he just stood there at about 18 yards staring at me. Had a buck tag left so I rolled down the window and told him out loud if he didn't run he was going to be dinner. I think he rolled his eyes when I poked the revolver at him, but he fell right over and made good suppers for a long time.

 

[KHornet]

Really like that story Ian. In this day and age of magnumitis, and gotta shoot way out to
hell and back, it is refreshing. Another case of putting the bullet in the bread basket.
Paul

 

[Pistolero]

Al,

That is a Lyman mold (2 cav) with Hollowpoint Services Erik's Cramer-type conversion to Glen Fryxell's pin specs.
Cast with 8 BHN range scrap alloy +2% Sn. First trial was with some identical bullets purchased at a
gun show. First try was 5.0 Unique, and first test was a cylinder full at 10 yds on a Millpark. The resulting
2" group right at POA was a revelation, after trying about 8 different big bux fancy ammo with none doing
better than 6-8" groups at 25 yds and all either way high or way low - like 12-18" away from POA. I was
getting pretty frustrated and this first try of a handload was just the Goldilocks load.

I sent the mold to Eric, asked Glen for pin dimensions (7 deg taper with round bottom, IIRC), cast a batch from
range scrap knowing it was soft (8 BHN) and should open up (now that I had established accuracy and POA issues
were solved) at the velocities possible within +P pressures and the 342 snub barrel length. This was the test that
sealed that load as THE load for that pistol.

Bill

 

[freebullet]

Bill
Thanks for sharing that. Can't ask for anything more.


Ian
Great story. I've gone so far as to fire a warning shot at them & sometimes they still don't run off. Those are the natural selection deer.

 

[9.3X62AL]

Those "natural selection" deer must be genetically adapted to taste better.

Bill, since the loads used need to be store-boughts, my reloading goal will be to match ballistic behaviors as closely as possible to that of the street ammo. "Optimizing" in a different direction, so to speak.

 

[Pistolero]

OK, I guess using handloads would be WAY too crazy for a Cali bureaucrat to
approve of.

I hope yours likes the factory fodder better than mine did.

Bill

 

[KHornet]

I just set up the 4 hole Lee with 38S dies, and loaded some of the 358477 HP's that
were cast from the first mold that Brad HP'd. Did a fine job of it, and with my melt
they went, right at 135 gr. Loaded about 30 with them over 4.2 gr. of Unique, to try
in the 2" stubby that I got for the wife. Makes a super looking load.
Paul

 

[Pistolero]

Should be good, Paul. The 477 is another favorite load. In a steel gun, that will
be a mild recoiling load. Plenty of room to pump it up if you need to.

Bill

 

[9.3X62AL]

Yeah, Bill--gotta be a store-bought. Must preserve the unities for the drama audience (mostly the suits at my old shop). In several dozen citizen- and officer-involved shootings/killings I investigated, the question of "factory load vs. handload" never got asked at the "staffings" held by the District Attorney's Offices I attended. Not even on the radar for that lot. Civil court can be a different story--the lawyers working that beat make Hillary Clinton look like a piker in terms of net non-credibility. I want to have my agency--the ammo maker--and my insurance carrier ALL part of the liability pool if/when the goblin's heirs and assigns "seek justice" for having been deprived of their precious hood rat's companionship and comfort. Much sound and fury, signifying nothing. Much of the time, the insurer pool offers $5K-$15K to settle out of court--the lawyers pose it to the aggrieved--they jump all over it--and the horsewarp lawyers pronounce "JUSTICE SERVED". Insurers will cut that check in a hearbeat, too. The heirs and assigns get new spinners for the roach coach and a couple big-screen HDTVs--the lawyers get a couple sailboat & Range Rover payments--and peace reigns in the community. Gag me with a spoon.......