long range accuracy

[water666]

so i wasn't quite sure where to put this but given my goal is accuracy with a rifle with cast rounds out too or beyond 500 here seems a good place to start i suppose.

now i have some BP experience and a nice pedersoli gibbs im currently playing with the only issue im running into that is the bore is far undersize so i can work with that, but i did wonder if i could achieve results similar on my centrefires using cast rounds and so on, and the issue i seem to run into in conflicting information, lack of information and so on, most people attempting this i have found on youtube and have their own way, theres no seemingly set formula, while exciting im not sure where to start and dont want to run through a bunch of different moulds, eventually i would love to shppt a match with some home made lead and see how i do if my data is right but where to start.

i picked up the lyman cast bullet hand book, cool, has bullet suggestions and loads, cool, but nothing really showing the accuracy or if theyre a viable option at 100 or beyond. so do any kind souls have some words of advice in my search to give me some guidance or am i chasing a fools errand so to speak? cheers from the land down under!

edit: i have the 4th edition of lyman cast bullet reloading

 

[300BLK]

The Trans-Atlantic matches were held in the 1870s. They started with muzzleloaders and blackpowder before moving on to breechloaders, but shot all the way to 1200 yards.

I was invited to an annual cast bullet silhouette match to 500m back around 2009 and have been back to every one since. Targets are the same NRA High Power silhouettes, chickens at 200m, pigs at 300m, turkeys at 385m, and rams at 500m. A few of us were told we were wasting ammo, but knocked down coyote silhouettes at 1000 yards, so what did we know?

Your moulds and load data are going to be dependent upon your rifle and caliber of choice, but 30 caliber or larger in a strong action would be a place to start. Relatively heavy bullet weight for caliber, and diameter that fills the throat are a starting point for bullets.

Lyman's cast bullet has data, but it seems that lot of their writing is out of date. Case in point, their 22cal data still suggests linotype and that best accuracy will be below 2300fps in 14" twists. IMO, linotype is too brittle, and less dense than a lower antimony content alloy. My pet 9 twist AR15 has shot sub MOA at 200 yards near full throttle.

 

[water666]

The Trans-Atlantic matches were held in the 1870s. They started with muzzleloaders and blackpowder before moving on to breechloaders, but shot all the way to 1200 yards.

I was invited to an annual cast bullet silhouette match to 500m back around 2009 and have been back to every one since. Targets are the same NRA High Power silhouettes, chickens at 200m, pigs at 300m, turkeys at 385m, and rams at 500m. A few of us were told we were wasting ammo, but knocked down coyote silhouettes at 1000 yards, so what did we know?

Your moulds and load data are going to be dependent upon your rifle and caliber of choice, but 30 caliber or larger in a strong action would be a place to start. Relatively heavy bullet weight for caliber, and diameter that fills the throat are a starting point for bullets.

Lyman's cast bullet has data, but it seems that lot of their writing is out of date. Case in point, their 22cal data still suggests linotype and that best accuracy will be below 2300fps in 14" twists. IMO, linotype is too brittle, and less dense than a lower antimony content alloy. My pet 9 twist AR15 has shot sub MOA at 200 yards near full throttle.

the 2 rifles i would really love to make this work in for giggles and because i like the idea would be my 308 match rifle and my 338 lapmag as an extension probably a 762x54r and 303 also, all have strong actions and go hard and accurate so i know its not going to be the rifles fault it would be mine, as ive seen sharps and gibbs rifles reach out to over 1000 and i plan to stretch my gibbs out when i can its a tack driver! i know its possible so im wondering what the secret is.

all my guns are relativeley modern i dont know the twist on the 338 but safe to assume the 30 cals have a twist of 1:10 to 1:12, so am i hearing correctly you would run a heeavier projectile? was planning to keep say 168 to 190 as a bad, my match rifle runs 168gr sierras at around 2700 so i was hoping a design akin to match bullets of the late 1800's in whitworths and gibbs might be a place to start, rounder less sharp nose, gas checks, and from what i understand i want the nose to run into the bore? i have my eye on afew moulds i obviously need to slug my bores but starting with somthing like a 309 mould and sizing when i need to should be appropriate no?

apologies i have many questions and theories to throw out.

 

[4060MAY]

I shoot the same match as 300BLK, since 1990, I didn't make it 2022,broke my ankle
I shoot a No.3 Ruger , 30-40Krag, my favorite bullets are RCBS 30-180-sp, and Lyman 311299, barrel is 1-10 twist, 180 to Turkeys, 299 for Rams
Originally the match was CBA, and we use the Sil rifle rules of that organization, Production class was IIRC 9 pounds with scope
Things have changed over the years, position etc.
The match is the most fun you can have vertically, nicest people you will find anywhere
Snakeoil,you are close enough to Ridgway, come out this year
usually the second weekend of June

 

[4060MAY]

some more to answer your questions
alloy is bank scrap, 13-14BHN, Hornady GC, sized .311, BAC lube, for the 180 I use Unique Powder, for the 200 I have been using Reloder 7
180 is about 1750fps, 200 is about 2000fps
some guys go faster, but the Ruger starts to make your arm numb from recoil
we also have a Levergun, military match, iron or scope, pigs at 300M,
there are target there for varmint sil, 700, 800 900, 1000M, and a buffalo at 1000 yds

https://ridgwayrifleclub.com/Cast%20Bullet%20Information/2023%20Cast%20Bullet%20Program.pdf

 

[300BLK]

That 308 would be an excellent platform to work with, and those 168-190gr bullets are fine. The 7.62x54 and 303s can be all over the place with groove and throat diameters as well as big chambers, so NOT a good place to start.

As for the old blackpowder rounds, you will see that the bullets are usually very blunt as they work better at the subsonic speeds they normally work at.

 

[water666]

for a reference this is the kind of round i was looking at for my gibbs, https://www.buffaloarms.com/442-540-grain-paper-patch-bu-jim442545.html , im looking at this size due to the odd undersizing of my bore to about .446 to .448, with measurement .448 seems to be the consensus and .446 pp bullets i resized from the originals slot in and fit snugly, sized down to 443 and patched up to 446. odd issue and even having to hammer the round in as i was at the range with no sizer i wanted to test it, it shot lights out, just brilliant so im hoping paper patching will give me the same result or close to as i just knocked them up to have a test run using some tracing paper from officeworks (australians will get that)

for the 30 cals im looking for designs that arnt to aggressive like the modern bthp but still seem to carry and long shape and round but blunt nose so ill drop some examples, im dropping CBE examples as thats where ive been browsing locally being in my country.

311-199GC

www.castbulletengineering.com.au

309-190GC

www.castbulletengineering.com.au

now i was also planning on just going for a larger diameter cast bullet say a 311 plus and sizing accordingly but i dont know if that will ruin the grooves for the lube or if thats fine like for 308 do i want a .311 bullet, you obviously stretch that out so there it is (as an asside i was planning on a larger bullet so if it worked well in the 308 i could then in theory size accordingly and use in the other 30 cals and so fourth but tell me if im being a cheapskate.)
alternatively i could probably have some moulds custom made as i know a machinist but that might be getting excessively anal.

 

[water666]

i did want to know, does anyone paper patch for their rifles anymore in a centrefire? i am rather fascinated by that as ill probably havto PP my gibbs and ive been reading the paper patch atm but that i assume is another story

 

[RBHarter]

I do for the over sized bores .
I can hit the high points and make suggestions, but I'm no teacher .
I will refer you to the other site for tutorials and suggest the book 'The paper jacket ' which I believe is available here as a PDF .

 

[water666]

I do for the over sized bores .
I can hit the high points and make suggestions, but I'm no teacher .
I will refer you to the other site for tutorials and suggest the book 'The paper jacket ' which I believe is available here as a PDF .

sorry when i said i was reading the paper patch i meant paper jacket lol but yet anything else you could direct me to would be appreciated

 

[RBHarter]

sorry when i said i was reading the paper patch i meant paper jacket lol but yet anything else you could direct me to would be appreciated

There are tomes over on CB . Paper selection should be digested in 3 settings. It's in the BP paper patch area . If you dig deep there are several threads with guys doing incredible things with it in the smokeless section. There was a guy using a 300 RUM getting 1000 yd 2 moa with a 180 gr bullet at 3000 fps .

There are references to NRA work done in the 80s and 90s with paper patch for long range but I don't recall ever seeing any specific reference books .

The Paper Jacket would appear to be THE reference.

 

[water666]

There are tomes over on CB . Paper selection should be digested in 3 settings. It's in the BP paper patch area . If you dig deep there are several threads with guys doing incredible things with it in the smokeless section. There was a guy using a 300 RUM getting 1000 yd 2 moa with a 180 gr bullet at 3000 fps .

There are references to NRA work done in the 80s and 90s with paper patch for long range but I don't recall ever seeing any specific reference books .

The Paper Jacket would appear to be THE reference.

i will hunt down that 300 rum tome that is exactly what id like to see

 

[Ian]

theres no seemingly set formula

Those that know what the hell they're doing very much have a set formula. Same with the Muzzleloaders and the BPCR folks. Each discipline has its unique variations. I sent you a link about your smokeless inquiry in PM.

 

[fiver]

chuckle... good,,, i'm tired of typing 9000 word diatribes.

 

[Ian]

chuckle... good,,, i'm tired of typing 9000 word diatribes.

LoL! Just turn it into a Fiver Zip File and give it to him the three sentences.

 

[fiver]

i can probably get it down to.
case prep, load details, and bullet design....

 

[L Ross]

Diatribes are good. Typing long winded, technical treatises keeps you off the streets and out of trouble, maybe.

 

[462]

Those that know what the hell they're doing very much have a set formula. Same with the Muzzleloaders and the BPCR folks. Each discipline has its unique variations. I sent you a link about your smokeless inquiry in PM.

chuckle... good,,, i'm tired of typing 9000 word diatribes.

LoL! Just turn it into a Fiver Zip File and give it to him the three sentences.

i can probably get it down to.
case prep, load details, and bullet design....

 

[water666]

hey ill take what i can get! i have an awful lot of reading to keep me busy and off the streets a while now xD

 

[fiver]

we're just having a little fun at your expense.
go through and ask one question at a time, but be prepared to work along at home if you really want the final answers to the test.
we can tell and say and give you bullet, alloy, and load details that'll get you on target at 500yds. but unless your out pulling the trigger and trying a few things on your own you'll not find the best answer to your situation.