Low node 358 win.

richhodg66

Well-Known Member
There was a fella on the other site til those assholes ran him off several years ago, went by Jim and he was a good guy, avid coon hunter who used cast in a .223. His methodology was to drop the charge bit by bit until he stuck a bullet, then back to the lowest charge that didn't stick a bullet. Seems that was plenty adequate for head shooting treed racoons.

He was a good dude. We're both from Low Country S.C. and we had some good conversations, sorry I lost track of him.
 

richhodg66

Well-Known Member
RBHarter, curious as to what velocity you loaded those 148 grain WCs. I never would have guessed wadcutters would have made it to 100 yards like that showing only slight indication of yaw.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
RBHarter, curious as to what velocity you loaded those 148 grain WCs. I never would have guessed wadcutters would have made it to 100 yards like that showing only slight indication of yaw.
No idea. It was just fooling around with whatever was there and whatever the powder measure was throwing. Probably 8-9.5 Unique. I joked once that I could probably get 4000 fps out of that little 95 gr NOE if it had a check ....... apparently the forums of the hour had no sense of humor and I was suddenly sad I didn't have any of those 75&85 gr GD left ..... The WC I would guess probably left the muzzle right at 1100 fps keeping in mind I was in 70° 27% humidity at 4000 ft conditions the speed of sound was a little higher . The short 1-14" twist and 24" barrel didn't hurt anything either .
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
Dan over to Mtn. Molds was working with a little button nose wad cutter type bullet that he was painting with acrylic paint.
he was running a 30 cal [IIRC] at close to 3-K.
i don't recall any 1/2" groups being mentioned, but @2"s seems more like the norm.
 

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
your gonna be fighting under stabilization at some point.
That is why you adjust your load until you get stable or almost stable flight!
Actually some of my most accurate "Low Node" loads slightly keyhole at 50 yards! And they are very accurate!
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
...His methodology was to drop the charge bit by bit until he stuck a bullet, then back to the lowest charge that didn't stick a bullet....

Not to discredit, but to reinforce - this method is not "new" or unique. Maybe not widely known, let alone accepted, but I've studied this for some time and have experimented with it a great deal. There were at least three site I had bookmarked on the topic which have since disappeared.

Using the same logic and method, I've developed loads shooting 158 grain 357 bullets from 357 Mag carbines and one thing which I will suggest one pays close attention to is that each barrel will be a different story. I started this experiment with a 357 Mag Rossi 92, which had a .355" groove and an amazingly pretty, shiny bore. I could push the 158s at about 450 fps out the muzzle with utter reliability - 100%. These loads were incredibly effective on 'coons destroying property. Body shots at a couple to fifteen yards or so and the 'coon would stiffen momentarily and then slump - no exit wound. Head shots were always dramatic - a 'coon with half (or less) a head left, thrashing about for almost a minute, making a terrible mess.

Two different H&R Handi-Rifles worked almost as well, but required slightly more powder, which rendered slightly more noise, larger groove diameters, not AS smooth bores, but still very quiet and very effective, just not AS quiet as the Rossi with the really right bore.

I got this notion to "upgrade" and bought a Ruger 77/357. The bore looked terrible in comparison to the cheaper guns as did the whole gun. I could not get this gun to perform anywhere near the level of the other guns, requiring almost twice the powder (still a low-level target load at that point) and a lot of extra noise. I stick quite a few in that Ruger barrel trying to find its "sweet spot" and once I did - it was too loud and too fast. I amn trying really hard to be objective and not disparage that rifle, as it's not the point, but it DID indicate to me that you must THOROUGHLY test each and every barrel and never assume such a load will work in another gun.

Assuring that the bullet cleared the muzzle EVERY SINGLE TIME is (EMPHATICALLY) IMPERATIVE! And,... it's a pain in the neck with a repeater. Secondary lesson was that the break-opens were SO much easier to check for a clear bore each time you extracted a spent case.

NOW, I am using a Contender Carbine, with a 18" MGM barrel, which is pretty nice inside, and can get pretty much the same from it as the Rossi I started with. It is very convenient to deliver quiet, DECISIVE and undramatic dispatching shots on tough vermin. Not too long ago, I had to dispatch a wary and sizable woodchuck who'd taken up residence very near my back porch. Had it attracted a mate, my back porch would have been a haven to a batch of borers, except that, from about 30', I put a quiet and non-dramatic end to his ambitions. Again, at about 450 fps, a 158 grain(ish) HP SWC, cast very soft and no exit wound.

Bottom line, you really can't be an idiot about this, but it is a legitimate, viable and useful means if you are diligent in your research and experimentation and don't just take some Internet commando's word for it - MYSELF INCLUDED. It's all on you to go about this in a safe manner. It's tedious and requires patience and DILIGENCE.

EDIT: Though I did live in the "low country of SC" for a while, I was not "the guy on the other forum."
 
Last edited:

fiver

Well-Known Member
another help is to modify your lube.
when i was poking around at this i ended up tumble lubing and then graphiting the bullets right before they dried thoroughly.
the graphite coating was a bit messy to handle but allowed me more consistency from shot to shot and lower speeds.

i'm kind of wondering if barely groove size, dead soft bullets, and powder coating might be useful.
 

nanuk

Member
I think it was in an NRA reloading book…
This is for straight walled cases only,
using a round ball or light conical, pushing it deeper into the case raised pressure thereby reducing the amount of powder to get to the minimum needed for reliable shoots

Straight pistol cases, and the few rifle cases could benefit from this
Sure wish I has one of those LOONNNGGGG Stevens rounds to play with…. 22-15?
Or a simple 38-55/375win?
 

Dusty Bannister

Well-Known Member
If it was mentioned, I missed it. If you are shooting these tiny loads from a tree stand, the powder is at the far end of the case. My experience with fire lapping shots into a pond encouraged me to not depend upon the bullet leaving the barrel at each shot. Adding to that, lower ambient temps just might exacerbate a poor condition. Use those loads with caution.
 

Jeff H

NW Ohio
If it was mentioned, I missed it. If you are shooting these tiny loads from a tree stand, the powder is at the far end of the case. My experience with fire lapping shots into a pond encouraged me to not depend upon the bullet leaving the barrel at each shot. Adding to that, lower ambient temps just might exacerbate a poor condition. Use those loads with caution.

Good point.

My uses are from the ground and usually rather close - for varmints/vermin. Also, the faster powders help with consistent ignition. I use Unique and HP38/W231 and have not had any problems with position-sensitivity in the small(ish) 357 case. Heavier/longer bullets also help with consistent ignition, taking up space in the case and give a little bit back to make up for velocity sacrificed. Then too, the good ol' 148 grain WC takes up a bunch of space and that nose whacks with a certain authority, even at low speeds.

None of the above is all that great past 25 yards or so, as the trajectory is very steep. I've not messed with these much since getting a suppressor for my 357, but my best/most useful load is 4.5 grains of Unique and a 180 grain WFN, which is darned near a wadcutter and takes up a fair bit of space in the case. These loads (with the can) get me out to 50 yards easily and their POI is only one inch lower at 50 yards than at 10 yards.

I have been pretty bogged down and have not had time to scour the Internet for the resources I used as a guide or I'd post some links. The ones I had bookmarked are all dead links now.

Here a 158 grain LEE TL-SWC cast of 50/50 WW/Pb, doing about 450 fps before and after traveling 20 yards and impacting a steel silhouette. This was from the Rossi.

LEE358158TL-400-400.jpg

AS @Dusty Bannister HAS MENTIONED - BE SAFE! These are useful loads, but there is a fair bit to learn before using them. Making sure EVERY BULLET EXITS THE MUZZLE is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED. NO GUESSING. This is one very handy feature of the break-opens, as it's so easy to peek down the bore after each shot.

EDIT: Ed Harris has done a fair bit of work with such loads and certainly has much more credibility in this realm than I. Search for his work related to "lettuce protector" and you will find some sound and sage wisdom.
 
Last edited: