Okay, let's diagnose this alloy.

3

358156hp

Guest
My alloys are composed mostly of scrap, to which I add other alloys to achieve my desired performance. At this point I'm mixing range scrap, a bit of lino of uncertain origin (could also be monotype), and tin, in the form of 95/5 lead free solder (95% tin, 5% antimony. The real wild cards are the range scrap and the lino. Many people call the single character type pieces "linotype" but my understanding is that they should actually be monotype. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

My goal for these particular bullets is 13-14 bhn, air cooled. They are 357 mag. hollowpoints that should leave the barrel at slightly over 1200 FPS. They will be tested for brittleness and expansion before going into service.

I cast perhaps 50 bullets with this alloy last night from a new mould, and promptly remelted them all because it was a new mould, and I was still getting wrinkling which I accredited to the new mould "breaking in". I've seen this a lot with new aluminum moulds and don't consider it to be an issue. It's just a break in thing. The PID was set at 400C, which is slightly over 750F.

After the mould warmed up properly, I noticed the alloy seemed to "freeze" rather abruptly, and this continued through out the session. I did experiment with watching the PID display fall and rise when the bullets were returned to the melt, but for the major portion of the session, my pot temps fluctuated less than ten degrees. Still the rather abrupt sprue freezing continued. My first thought was that this batch of range scrap may have a bit more antimony than the last one, so I poured two ingots to test later. Finally, I cleaned everything up, and shut it down. The bullet bases were slightly frosted at this point. I normally cool them with a damp cloth at this point to speed up sprue freeze while allowing the noses to continue building up heat. The sprues broke cleanly and freely without much tearing.

This morning I tested the ingots in my LBT hardness tester, and they came out at 13 bhn. Since they're ingots, and cool slower than bullets will, I estimate bullet hardness will be 14-15, air cooled. What puzzles me is the really rapid freezing of the sprues, and that the surface of the alloy in the pot "cracked" when it froze. I'm sure you've seen this before too, and there has to be some sort of correlation between the fast, hard sprue freezing, which suggests to me a high antimony and/or arsenic level, and the surface cracks in the cooled pot. I seem to be getting high alloy shrinkage, which I have never investigated it before.

Plan B will likely include adding more soft lead to the mix, but that kind of flies in the face of my BHN being on target. One other observation I neglected to mention, I suspect this alloy is probably a bit rich in tin, it has that really bright, light color to it that I first noticed ages ago when I misplaced a decimal point in my cyphering and ended up with about 20% tin in an alloy. It sure was purty though.

What do you think I'm seeing here?
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
How much Monotype are you adding? I don't have that problem when I mix it 10% monotype to 90% range scrap. Mine with that mix air cools right where you are looking for.

What is your range scrap comprised of? Mine is some cast, mostly jacketed handgun cores.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I believe that you are seeing stress cracking from an unbalance of tin and antimony. The normal minimum is one part tin to three parts antimony to make fine grained lead/tin/antimony tri-metal crystals. Lawrence "hard-ball" or "magnum" alloy was 92% lead, 2% tin and 6% antimony for a good reason that is still used by commercial casters today. It has a fairly sharp liquidous temperature, small pasty phase, and hard enough for packaging and shipping. Consider adding 1% more tin, and see how it behaves.

The other time I have seen this is when I was working with some high copper alloy (5%) Babbitt metal. There are some really interesting four metal, tri-, and bi- metal structures during differential cooling when left in a lead pot. I never got anything really useable until the Cu was down around 0.3%.

Dennis Marshall did a great article on alloys in the #3 Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. From 1880 to 1910 during the great age of newspapers that was tons of research done on lead alloys. It is mostly available over the internet if you search the metal analysis websites.
 
3

358156hp

Guest
The range scrap was pretty indistinguishable, it was from an indoor range, so I expect it was mostly jacketed scrap. The "lino" was already cast in ingots when I got it. I have experienced this situation before, and while I do know that adding soft lead will correct it, I'd have to start over to get the bhn where I want it. I'll try giving it some additional tin, in the form of pewter and we'll see what that does for us.

I added pics. The first pic is an ingot I cut in half with a chisel. The actual fracture line you see was caused by lead building up in front of the chisel blade that was driven through the final 1/4 inch of the ingot. The ingot was not brittle by any means.

ingot.jpg pot.jpg

Here's a pic of the alloy in the pot after it had cooled overnight. It kind of looks like a martian landscape.
 

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Ian

Notorious member
If it's acting like a eutectic alloy, study the ternary phase chart copied from the Metals Handbook and published in Lyman's cast #3 and you might be able to hazard a better guess as to the proportions of metal in the mix, since not very many things are eutectic or pseudo-eutectic. Mine is at work right now or I'd study it for you. I was gifted a few pounds of monotype letters once unexpectedly from someone I gave some old brass or something to, a few different blocks I tested came out between something like seven and 9 bhn. I still have them, never bothered to melt them down, but they were obviously cast from some very depleted alloy.

The stuff in the pot looks like it's crying for a sawdust flux, like the antimony is crystallizing out of solution. Or it could be a lot of calcium contamination, but how that got into the mix is anyone's guess.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Your pot pix is interesting in that the ring on the outside is so small, it is common to see them 1/3 the distance to the center. That means that there was a short pasty phase between liquid and solid. This leads me to believe that there is much more antimony than tin or lead to make bi-metal compounds. The other possibility is that you got foundry type rather than linotype. The copper will precipitate out first, then antimony and only then the tri- and bi- compounds trying to buddy up with lead atoms. Regardless, your solution is the correct one. Dilution of the liquid solution with lead will help.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Ian,

I am sorry to say the calcium contamination of US recycled lead is pretty common here in the PNW. Meth maggots melt even modern car batteries trying to get the lead to sell to the recyclers. There other "trick" is to melt zinc pot metal from fuel pumps etc. to add to the pot.
 

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3

358156hp

Guest
I added 1/4 lb of pewter and saw a big improvement in texture. I still see shrinkage, but it's not causing fractures in the top surface. I just fired the pot up again and added another 1/4 lb pewter ingot. We'll see if it makes a difference a little later. I may be wrong about the makeup of my scrap alloys, and starving the mix for tin.
pot2.jpg
 
3

358156hp

Guest
My "lino" came from a 5 gal bucket of metal that I bought from a Country Sheriffs Deputy almost 20 years ago. I also bought a like amount of wheelweight ingots. I have seen this happen before, and when it did, I poured the entire pot into ingots, then cut it with soft lead and restarted the alloy development to get the hardness I wanted. This batch shouldn't have much lino in it, but now the WW ingots are suspect too. So will "worn out" lino still have the crystalline structure of fresher alloy? This could explain some "bolt out of the blue" episodes in the past. I found my Lyman 3rd Edition Cast Handbook. I know which article Ian mentioned and will get busy reading.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Ian,

I am sorry to say the calcium contamination of US recycled lead is pretty common here in the PNW. Meth maggots melt even modern car batteries trying to get the lead to sell to the recyclers. There other "trick" is to melt zinc pot metal from fuel pumps etc. to add to the pot.

Pretty common in clippy WW, I always figured the source to be recycled battery lead (recycled legitimately or otherwise as you mentioned), but I didn't read that HP's mix had much known WW metal in it, so I was puzzled how it would get in there. Without much tin, high antimony content can tend to make the oatmeal slush on top, but that stuff just looked nasty to me, like a lot of metal oxides there. If that is the case, sawdust will clear it right up. Sawdust will also remove oxidized calcium. Some calcium is actually not bad in my experience as it adds a significant hardening effect, but requires a bit of tin to smooth it out.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
So will "worn out" lino still have the crystalline structure of fresher alloy?
Even worse, as lead and tin will mix in any combination. The tin is the first metal to oxidize, then lead and last antimony. Basically the only way you loose antimony is fluxing at too low of temperature, i.e. less than 675 degrees F. Then is makes clumps and gets mechanically separated.
 
3

358156hp

Guest
The second addition of tin changed nothing. I'll try fluxing with pine chips tomorrow.

This is interesting.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I find that my monotype needs a bit more heat to really melt properly of used in a very high percentage in an alloy. I heat to 750, let it sit for a good 10 minutes, then flux. Seems there is enough Sb in the stuff that it needs time to really melt in right.

Get it a bit warmer, let it sit a bit, then flux the hell out of it with sawdust.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
that almost looks like Tin precipitation to me.
I'm wondering if you have a tin antimony imbalance the wrong direction.
I say almost on the tin precipitation because it generally comes out smoother and shinier.
the grain structure of this pot is indicating a contamination but I am not sure which direction to point you in.
indium,nickel maybe?
I think I would try the heat like brad suggests first, but while it's hot I would do a sulpher cleaning of the alloy,
and see what I get from that.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
What is a "sulpher cleaning"? Is that some type of reduction reaction using sulfur? This is something new to me. How does it work?
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Sulfur is added to the melt, allowed to sit on top long enough to be completely dry, then stirred in. It is used to help remove zinc.
I would want to do it outside, the sulfur is likely to stink a bit.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Interesting, I will have to dig out my old chemistry books to see how this works. Thanks, Ric
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
it's also a grain refiner and replaces arsenic in alloys that don't have it.

anyway it's main job here is to act as a scrubber and pull impurity's from the alloy.
and if you dim the lights you get to see a pretty cool green flame this will help with oxide reduction.
once you get it clean then following it up with carbon will help bind the rest of the alloys constituents into a matrix.
 
3

358156hp

Guest
No observable change after two pine shaving flux sessions. I fluxed once normally, then a second time, letting the charred pine shavings remain on top of the melt for about 15 minutes or so to deprive the surface of oxygen, then stirred it through one more time. I reset the PID to 375 (413C) and we'll try again.

I did reread Dennis Marshalls chapter on alloys In Lymans Third Edition. I hadn't read it for ages. The first part still makes my head hurt.

ETA: I let it sit at 375 for an hour, then fluxed with pine shavings twice again. At that point I let it sit at 375 for another hour or so with the charred pine shavings on top. If anything, it may be going backwards, which makes no sense. The extra heat, and the extra processing may have increased the alloy shrinkage. I'm going to do some test casts and test hardness.
 
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