Mowgli Terry
Active Member
I have been fiddling with an NOE expander plug in a Universal Lee tool. These things did not cost very much. Those little plugs beat the M die by a mile or two.
Redding 38 Spec / 357 Mag profile crimp & Taper crimp dies !
- Thread starter JWFilips
- Start date
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
I'm just curious: The problems I see with taper crimp dies is being turned in too tight. I use a regular taper C&H crimp die loading 45 ACP. Set right it crimps the case mouth area very well. I broke out my older 38/357 Redding Profile Crimp die yesterday for loading 38 Special cartridges. The roll crimp appears modest as is the taper portion. I'm to the place of asking what's the point? Is this better than the ordinary roll crimp? These 38 Special rounds are loaded with 358477 bullets Cartridges are loaded on a 550 with Dillon expander.
When Dad used his FFL to buy the Colt Officer's Model Match I wanted, he also showed me how to use his Star sizer (.358) and multi-stage press. It shot well. The we got the fancy-schmancy RCBS carbide dies. I started to see groups expand to 2.5 inches at 25 yards off a rest, and I could feel lead cutting. No leading, so I thought little of it. Then I took measurements of outside case diameter from the dies I used. I also use .38 Super to size .38 Special and .357 Magnum. Or I could use the twenty-dollar Lee Factory Crimp die to size that brass. I think I found a use for the Factory Crimp Die!
Ian
Notorious member
The problem with the Redding Profile Crimp dies is the taper is too shallow to get a hard crimp with cast bullets. I bought one for .45 ACP a while back as a result of a conversation here where crimping the mouth to .465" was recommended and my Lee seat/crimp die wouldn't quite do it. The Redding die would do it but the crimp extended below the bullet base, crushing the entire bullet down with it in a long taper. The Redding die is just fine for a .469" crimp on cast bullets. Lee Precision makes a TC-only die for .45 ACP which is excellent and what I use now for a .467" crimp on a .4515" cast bullet. I know this thread is about .38/.357 but the angle seems wrong for cast bullets on ALL the Redding taper crimp dies.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
They are not "taper crimp" dies, but profile crimp. They make cases almost the maximum SAAMI cartridge dimensions. Mine work great with .453" bullets in 45 ACP and 45 AR.
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
38 Special: the instructions to my years old profile crimp die speaks only of bullets. Sure enough one can load some pretty cartridges. That for me would be 38 Special only. The instructions indicate there is a taper portion along with that for a roll crimp. The crimp is there but to call it a roll crimp is a stretch. The instructions also speak about the need to trim brass. These instructions are probably forty years old. For me it's nice for 38 Special only, By inference this die is made for match cartridges. The 357 Magnum tool head keeps the Dillon crimp die. I'll check in tomorrow with off hand results. I'll be shooting both the 150 and 155 versions of the 358477 bullet.
I've loaded many 1,000's of .45Colt, .45ACP, .45AR and in the last 20+yrs .45S&W Schofield, using old steel Lyman or RCBS dies, The only roll crimp I use is for the #454190 to crimp over the ogive. Otherwise a light taper crimp is all that I've ever needed.
I do prefer the Lyman M-die for expanding.
I do prefer the Lyman M-die for expanding.
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
I did shoot my reloads using the Redding die today, The results confirmed the effectiveness of loads made using that die. For handguns I do well with Dillon's expander/funnels. I just, like right now, finished a run of 38 Special rounds using four grains of Accurate #2 and Lyman 358477 bullets. The Redding die makes an barely noticeable crimp. I have pulled a bullet and found no damage to the bullet. The Redding die will stay in the tool head until a compelling reason comes along not to. . My take on it is that die is made for target type rounds in 38 Special.
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No "wasp-waist," I take it? That would be nice.
Speaking of "old steel dies," I grew up using Lyman True-Line Jr. Turret presses for handgun and I bet my dad still has the 38/357 dies. I don't remember those old dies doing to brass what carbide dies now do to brass. Got my first carbide set in '82 for the 44 Special and was distressed at how ugly my cartridges were coming out.
When I roll-crimp pistol brass, I don't go by where the lever stops, but by the feel of the crimp. Case length be damned (to a certain extent) and I get consistent roll crimps that way. This makes it an extra step - crimping separately from seating.
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
My steel dies are a generation or so later. These RCBS dies are from the 1960's. One set is for 38 and the other is for 357-so marked. These dies came from as estate. Those old dies do not do the things to brass that carbide dies do. For one, the cast taper remains. My 44 Magnum brass has grown at differential rates. If I want uniform crimp looks like case trimming in in the future. This case length problem is less evident in 38 Special.
smokeywolf
Well-Known Member
My 38 SPL and 45 Colt size/lube dies are sized to produce a bullet that will be .0003 inch under chamber throat dia. in the revolvers. Depending on the alloy mixture, most of the time I'm pretty darn close to that.
Seating and crimping is done with old Hollywood Gun Shop seat/crimp dies (roll crimps) in separate operations.
Loads range from plinking to moderate. Grown out of that hot load stuff.
Was just seating 161 grain SWCs cast almost 50 years ago, in brand spankin' new 38 SPL cases today, loaded with 3.0 grns. of Bullseye.
Seating and crimping is done with old Hollywood Gun Shop seat/crimp dies (roll crimps) in separate operations.
Loads range from plinking to moderate. Grown out of that hot load stuff.
Was just seating 161 grain SWCs cast almost 50 years ago, in brand spankin' new 38 SPL cases today, loaded with 3.0 grns. of Bullseye.
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
My 44's are sized in a Star sizer with custom sizing die at .4305. This size is an average of the 44 caliber revolvers here. I'm not so up with the 38 Special running .3575. Shoots good with no leading problem. The exception was loading with the old 35863 flush seated WC. The custom at the time was to lube one groove. Tried that and will not try that again. I stopped using the Lyman 358485 WC as the 359477 SWC would do in both 38 Special and 357 Magnum. Accuracy is outstanding. I'm struggling with Shooters World Power as there is no Accurate powder to be had locally. SW is OK but data is the mother of all messes.
I load my 44's Special on one tool head with Lyman sizing and seating die along with a Dillon crimping die. The 44 Magnum is loaded on Dillon dies entirely on another tool head. The Special is wonderfully easy to load. There's a world of good data out there. It's gonna be the Lyman 439241 and Saeco 441 for the time being.
I load my 44's Special on one tool head with Lyman sizing and seating die along with a Dillon crimping die. The 44 Magnum is loaded on Dillon dies entirely on another tool head. The Special is wonderfully easy to load. There's a world of good data out there. It's gonna be the Lyman 439241 and Saeco 441 for the time being.
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
Personal Opinion: In an earlier post if had misspoken a concerning Redding taper crimp die. I missed the mark. My die is a profile crimp die. One problem, to me, is that I think of a roll crimp usually is noticeably folded into the crimp groove. In my Redding die the "rolled" part is more shallow than on my standard dies. For me, the Redding die works very well. My personal feeling is that Redding does not communicate what the crimp actually looks like. What I say about appearance and accuracy stands. I suspect (as in don't know)that the profile may have been intended for J bullets. I'll satisfy my curiosity shortly loading up 41 Magnum using a profile crimping die with cast bullets.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I have and use an assortment of 38/357 dies, including Redding crimp dies. I prefer to seat & crimp in separate steps and use a roll crimp on revolver cartridges. I have found Redding crimp dies to be excellent.
I understand that the older steel dies may be better suited for cast bullets, but I still use carbide sizing dies on a progressive press when loading handgun cartridges. The carbide dies may size the case more than steel, but it doesn’t seem to be enough to cause me problems. IMO, I find the expander is far more critical than the sizing die, YMMV. If there is one piece of gear that makes or breaks the results when loading cast bullets – it’s the expander. Most expanders on current dies and progressive presses are set up for jacketed bullets and are way too small and way too shallow. The proper “M” die style expander, made to the correct dimensions – is key.
The Redding Profile crimp dies have a tight, almost taper crimp profile leading up to the point where the roll crimp begins. So, if you’re already dealing with fat casings and fat bullets, a Redding Profile crimp die is going to be snug even before the case mouth reaches the roll crimp section. I think the Redding Profile Crimp dies are excellent dies but may not be the best solution for every situation.
I understand that the older steel dies may be better suited for cast bullets, but I still use carbide sizing dies on a progressive press when loading handgun cartridges. The carbide dies may size the case more than steel, but it doesn’t seem to be enough to cause me problems. IMO, I find the expander is far more critical than the sizing die, YMMV. If there is one piece of gear that makes or breaks the results when loading cast bullets – it’s the expander. Most expanders on current dies and progressive presses are set up for jacketed bullets and are way too small and way too shallow. The proper “M” die style expander, made to the correct dimensions – is key.
The Redding Profile crimp dies have a tight, almost taper crimp profile leading up to the point where the roll crimp begins. So, if you’re already dealing with fat casings and fat bullets, a Redding Profile crimp die is going to be snug even before the case mouth reaches the roll crimp section. I think the Redding Profile Crimp dies are excellent dies but may not be the best solution for every situation.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I also suspect there is some occasional confusion regarding the Redding Taper Crimp dies and the Redding Profile crimp dies.
Those are TWO different dies.
The Taper crimp die is exactly what its name implies; a taper crimp die.
The Profile crimp die is a roll crimp die BUT it has a tight, almost taper like lead below the roll crimp section of the die.
Those are TWO different dies.
The Taper crimp die is exactly what its name implies; a taper crimp die.
The Profile crimp die is a roll crimp die BUT it has a tight, almost taper like lead below the roll crimp section of the die.
Mowgli Terry
Active Member
Redding's instructions do not elaborate on use or appearance much. Both examples here are older. It may be different these days, My 38/357 die looks like if was designed for shallow crimping grooves. The learning process of these dies has to do with bumping into stuff and figuring out an answer.
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Winelover
North Central Arkansas
I have their taper crimp die for 9 mm and it is also made with jacketed in mind...........starts crimping way before final seating. The seating stem was also too short for cast (seating without crimping) and I had to call customer service and obtain a longer one. I always crimp in a separate operation.
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RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Redding "standard" revolver caliber dies have a roll crimper with them; self-loader caliber dies now have a taper crimp die. The "profile" crimp die was begun in the early '80's when Cowboy Shooting got started. What it does is allow an oversize bullet, like .360" in 38 special, be seated in a thick wall case. The "profile" crimp die will bring it back to maximum SAAMI cartridge dimensions. The shallow crimp will not destroy accuracy with soft swaged lead commercial bullets that a heavy full roll crimp sometimes does. For me the biggest advantage is that you do not have screw the die down all the way; you can have the profile taper hold the bullet and the crimp section just straighten out the expanding die flair.
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JWFilips
Well-Known Member
I have come to the conclusion: That any type of commercial dies out there are made for Jacketed bullets except for maybe RCBS cowboy dies.
I would rather trust my "gut" than play with any of the ones on the market! I shoot fat lead alloy bullets! The modern consumer world knows nothing about these projectiles!
I would rather trust my "gut" than play with any of the ones on the market! I shoot fat lead alloy bullets! The modern consumer world knows nothing about these projectiles!
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that's accurate. The modern loader using jacketed bullets may not understand that (or maybe he does understand and just isn't playing it that arena, at that moment)
There may be some difference between steel sizing dies and carbide sizing dies. There IS a difference between expanders intended for jacketed bullets and cast bullets.
When we get to the crimping function - there are modern alternatives that aren't bad.
There's no mystery surrounding the Redding Profile crimp die. It has a fairly tight lead into the crimping section of the die but it’s still basically a roll crimp die.
Other types of roll crimp dies may be sized a little more generously leading up to the actual point where the crimping occurs, but the function is similar.
If you’re using a fairly fat bullet, a Redding Profile Crimp die may not be your best choice but that’s a function of the style of the dies, not its “modern” linage.
I know how to seat and crimp in one operation, but I almost always perform those steps as separate operations. It’s MUCH easier to separate those two functions and get good results. I have achieved satisfactory crimps with many different brands of dies, using cast bullets and it is mostly a function of adjustment and not the actual die.
When it comes to the crimping operation, I think adequate is what you should be aiming for and not the text book crimp.