Rifle Brass with Small Rifle Primer Pockets?

[JWinAZ]

Will we start to see more rifle calibers that are traditionally LR become available with SR pockets? I know that there are a couple now: 6.5 Creedmore and .308, maybe others. Some .30-30 were made for SR in the past. There may be problems under certain conditions, cold for example. Certainly limited to medium capacity cartridges.

 

[Jeff H]

Only if the ammo companies think they can upsell the idea as some kind of miracle cure to enhance accuracy, increase velocity, make your hair grow back, reduce your waist-size and increase your.... OK, skip that last one. Oh, and then give it a dumb new name, like "Thirty-'leven Deer-Duster."

If they did, and it wasn't too much more costly than regular brass, I'd invest in some 30/30 cases with small primer pockets for the sake of being able to load it if all I had/could get were small primers, which seems to be all they are putting out there right now.

I've sold/traded off all other guns which take large rifle and pistol primers and my 30/30 and 44 Special are the ones I dedicate my remaining stock to. I'd but some of either case just to have the flexibility.

I actually have a small handful of large-pistol-primer 357 Mag cases I keep for this reason. I can shoot the 357 (at least a little) regardless of what primers I have/can get - except for Berdan.

 

[Tom]

Iirc,the small primer 30-30 was made for benchrest. I think it was called 30 American.
Nope, that wasn't the name. At any rate, I remember seeing the cartridge in an old cartridges of the world.

 

[Jeff H]

Yes, it was the "30 American."

As I recall, Federal was the only company which made brass for it and there was never a commercially-loaded round. I'd have to find my COOW to verify, but I believe it was from the early eighties and the small primer pocket ostensibly made it "more accurate" for one or more of the competitive target-shooting games.

I'd be less inclined to purchase based on accuracy hypotheses than for the versatility.

 

[Tomme boy]

Don't think it will happen. You need a different firing pin and maybe the bolthead bushed to make the newer smaller diameter pin work. Plus all the ignition issues doing it in most cases. If they could do it they would have already to cut cost. The whole thing in the pistol calibers doing it, is cost. Less things they have to stock and no changeover on the machines. Times that by millions and you can see why they are putting them in the pistol cases.

I was the first one that floated the cost size of it and now everyone else sees why I said it. I come from a industrial manufacturing background. Everything is done to reduce cost. And I seen that right away.

At first it was a way to separate the non toxic primers from the regular. But not anymore. I get LOTS of range brass and I am seeing some of the other makers doing it now in a few other calibers. Fiocchi, S&B, Magtech, Federal, Aguila are some of the just 45acp I have picked up with the SP.

 

[david s]

Some of the factory hot rodded 45-70 ammo has small primer pockets. Supposedly this help to reduce the slam fire of the sharp-edged hard cast flat nosed bullets from hitting the next round primer in a tubular magazine. Jim Carmicheal had some small primer pocketed 308 cases for his 22 Cheeta wild cat back in the 1980's and weren't the Remington Bench Rest (22BR-6mm BR) rounds also based on shortened 308 cases with small primer pockets?

 

[Jeff H]

...You need a different firing pin and maybe the bolthead bushed to make the newer smaller diameter pin work.....

I know Contenders don't, and probably Encores don't use different-sized firing pins for cases using small or large primers.

Any bolt-action I've owned, which was offered in 222 case-head through .473" case head chaberings, using the same bolt all appeared to also use the same firing pins. I've not bought any of the modern plastic-stocked guns, so what they're doing today, I have no idea...

Can't argue about saving money on the production-end. No other reason for it on the pistol ammo, especially if they're not hyping it to be some form of improvement.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

From a purely logistics viewpoint (and I am strongly driven by simple logistics) there could be some advantage to more commonality amongst cartridges. However, the opposite of simple logistics will occur during the interim. We are seeing this right now with small and large primer 45 ACP brass. If the transition to small primer pockets can be made, once you get there – your inventory needs may be smaller. And there will always be cartridges that can’t make the leap from large to small primers.

From a long viewpoint, it has advantages. In the short term, it would be difficult during the transition. From the overall viewpoint, there will still be two types of rifle cartridge primers because not all cartridges can effectively be transitioned to small primers.

 

[fiver]

aaand during the last go-round of nuthin being available it was the small pistol and rifle primers you couldn't get for love nor money.
actually the klinton shortage was the same way too, now that i think bout it.
i was able to buy LP primers for 53$ a sleeve no problem, but finding a small primer was not gonna happen even sitting right next to the ''primer dude'' at the gun shows for 3 years straight.

 

[Jeff H]

From a purely logistics viewpoint (and I am strongly driven by simple logistics) there could be some advantage to more commonality amongst cartridges....

For me, this is more about logistics than performance, and commonality is a big factor in my personal logistical practices.

I nearly made a big mistake several years ago, when I decided to divest myself of those pesky, little, fiddly small primers once and for all. One thing led to another and I ended up settling on large AND small primers anyway. One of the main reasons for that was BALANCE - not having all my eggs in one basket, versatility, etc.

The way I am set up now, if either small or large completely dried up, I'd have something I could still shoot. One thing I've tried to pay attention to is not saddling myself with powders which require magnum primers. I can use magnum primers for powders which don't require it, but using standard primers for powders requiring magnum primers can be a problem.

I spent too many years being low on a certain powder or primer and having a surplus of one or another which did not complement its counterpart. Nothing I shoot now is a very picky eater either. I even make sure that my 357 DA revolvers will reliably fire pistol OR rifle primers and that the powders I use will ignite with standard or magnum.

I'm blathering on now...

If someone started making 30/30 cases with small primer pockets, or 357 cases with large primer pockets, I'd jump on some.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Shortages aside, I would like to have simple logistics. But Jeff makes a valid point, some diversity gives you more options if one type is in short supply.

I load large primer 45 ACP brass, but I am slowing acquiring a supply of small primer pocket 45 ACP casings. I don't load them, but I hang onto them for the very reasons Jeff talks about.

 

[JWinAZ]

Close to when Precision Shooting's publication stopped, Dave Brennan (editor) found a stash of 30 American brass. He offered it to anyone willing to make a donation to an animal shelter or such. If I had only known . . . I'd jump at SR .30-30 myself.

 

[fiver]

30 American is also the name of the 30X57 round.
for some reason RCBS went through their die sets and added American or USA to a bunch of their stuff back about 2-K or so.

the XCB was gonna be the straight up 30X57, but having an 0-6 die modified was about 175$ cheaper than buying the X57 2 die set.

 

[Jeff H]

30 American is also the name of the 30X57 round.
for some reason RCBS went through their die sets and added American or USA to a bunch of their stuff back about 2-K or so.

the XCB was gonna be the straight up 30X57, but having an 0-6 die modified was about 175$ cheaper than buying the X57 2 die set.

So,... the "30x57" is a "thing?"

My dad chambered a couple rifles for 8x57 necked down to .308 and blown out to Ackley-Improved dimensions. He chambered a few 98 Mausers for it and I never understood why. He was getting '06 velocities at less than typical 308W pressures, but it seemed like a lot of hassle to duplicate something which wold already fit in the Mauser action - the 30-06.

He also did a 30x284 - on the 98 action, which I also didn't get, but it kept him busy and he had his fun.

He used an assortment of dies - didn't have the dies made for either cartridge, unless I just haven't found them yet.

 

[richhodg66]

I bought 100 rounds of Peters small primer brass soley for use in my .308 cast bullet bench gun. I also have been using SR primer 6.5 Creedmoor brass for cast loads. Mainly because I have a lot more SR primers than LR primers.

 

[Mainiac]

Iirc,the small primer 30-30 was made for benchrest. I think it was called 30 American.
Nope, that wasn't the name. At any rate, I remember seeing the cartridge in an old cartridges of the world.

Yup,,30 american,,1 of my bench guns,is chambered in 30 aardvark,,,
That federal 30/30 case has perfect neck walls,along with the small primer.

 

[fiver]

So,... the "30x57" is a "thing?"

oh yeah, i was wanting one for forever and a day.

the 7.5 swiss got on my radar waay back in the late 80's because of that, and i generally made it's brass by necking up 284 win.
if i could have ever found a shot out 284 win cheap cheap i'd probably still be shooting it's 30 cal barrel to death.

it never occurred to me to just get one of those 79 dollar Mausers re-barreled with a 200 dollar Hart or the like.
even so over the years i've pretty much had everything X57 cased but the 22 and the 9 version.
the 22 never made any sense, and i got a 358 win [shrug]

 

[Tomme boy]

On the 308W SP brass you will blank the primer if you don't have the bolt head bushed and the smaller pin fit to it. Especially bad in an AR10. But at the same time, it is not a bad thing to have your bolt bushed and a pin fit to it. Also the firing pin springs need to be changed at regular intervals also. Or you will start to see large SD variations. And primer flow even though the bolt has been bushed. The pins need to be strong enough to resist being push back into the bolt.

 

[fiver]

i remember a bunch of 308 Palma brass that was small primer.

 

[Tomme boy]

Yep. They ran that 155gr bullet way over published loads to get it to be supersonic at 1K. Most got about 5 loads before retiring the brass.