SL68 ...continued
- Thread starter JonB
- Start date
JonB
Halcyon member
When I made SL68B last time, in my stash I had one bar of Ivory soap that had been opened 18 months earlier. First I will say, I will never try to use old dry Ivory again. It is difficult to turn it into powder and it takes longer to cook (saponify).Since we have ourfarmasisphamasysPharmasistPharmacist (!) tuned in here, there are expiration date on some of my lube making supplies, specifically heavy laxative mineral oil that I haven't even opened yet. Should I replace my expired oils before I try making something else. They remain unopened. I was planning on using them to make SL68 some time back but never got around to it. Unless of course anybody has the old Apache Blue recipe and wants to share it
I don't see an issue with any other ingredient getting old.
Isn't Sodium Stearate THE ingredient in Ivory? Are you thinking of Stearic Acid?
JonB
Halcyon member
Maybe?
I didn't have the corrosion problem, it was another member, I hope they chime in.
Ian
Notorious member
It was stearic acid, it was Felix/WilJen lube, and the corrosion issue was discovered by me. WilJen did a group buy on supplies for FWFL and stearic acid was chosen because it melts right in at low temperature......because it is a fatty acid and not a reacted salt. It changed the pH of the lube from about 6.5 to about 5, which made copper and brass corrode. You get the metal salt sodium stearate by reacting the base sodium hydroxide (lye) and the acid stearic acid (a purified beef tryglyceride) together in hot water to yield the stearate, carbon dioxide, and animal glycerin. Once the salt is made it won't melt again at low temperature, that's why you can saponify beef tallow in boiling water but it takes more than twice that heat to melt the result again. Kind of like trying to melt lead dross back into solution: Can't do it because the oxide's melt point is three times that of the base metal's, but it can be chemically converted (reduced) at normal casting temperature.
Na stearate is fine, Brad gave me some and I made a few batches with it, it works fine, takes less than Ivory but is a titch more difficult to melt than damp Ivory. The damp Ivory foams like crazy as the water is boiling off but that foaming action dissolves it into very fine grains which melt more easily than dry Ivory when you crank the heat ip to 460.
Na stearate is fine, Brad gave me some and I made a few batches with it, it works fine, takes less than Ivory but is a titch more difficult to melt than damp Ivory. The damp Ivory foams like crazy as the water is boiling off but that foaming action dissolves it into very fine grains which melt more easily than dry Ivory when you crank the heat ip to 460.
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Ian
Notorious member
Somewhere in my fitful sleep last night I remembered what I had forgotten, it wasn't an lbt lube refernce exactly that got me going on the carbon thing, it was remembering that reference while I was looking up something else, specifically acetylene black as a grease thickener. The spark of memory was an ancient patent for combining acetylene black with lithium hydroxide and high molecular-weight fatty acids in the saponification vat in such a way that the lithium soap deposited itself on the carbon particles and encapsulating them. The result is a non-staining, pumpable grease which works in a central grease system yet has the extreme high-temperature capability of carbon greases without oil or thickener separation and without the black mess. I had read that patent, remembered Paco's loose reference to carbon in ApacheBlu (or however he spells it), and had a really big AHA! moment.
Here's the patent if anyone wants to go down that rabbit hole. Those of us who tried my waxless T-N-T lube are all too familiar with soap separation at high oressure and temperature and this is one way to cure that. Also, calcium/sodium/carbon blends have been patented which are ep/et and have less tendency to dump their thickener, but don't have the coated particle technology of this cool concept: https://patents.google.com/patent/US2696470
Ian
Notorious member
5Shot, the short version is my last research into making improvements to the SL series of "Extreme lube" involved some old but valid grease thickening technology which we can likely duplicate on a stove top.
Why do I keep picking this scab? SL-68B has some very minor shortcomings in the accuracy department compared to some other lubes used within their respective ideal temperature windows and experience has shown the high level of soap that makes it useful in a variety of weather also causes some very minor bore consistency issues which might be corrected with a better gellant matrix (the binder, in this case metal soap, that holds it all together and allows a softer mix to be made than would normally stand hot weather or hot barrels). I've long held that the gellant is the double-edged but necessary sword in a good all-temperature bullet lube, but we've tried just about everything there is to try and all of it has problems. The best lubes we've seen so far have a mixture of gellants and I had been aiming at refining the SL-series gellant portion since we got the waxes and oils figured out pretty well.
Why do I keep picking this scab? SL-68B has some very minor shortcomings in the accuracy department compared to some other lubes used within their respective ideal temperature windows and experience has shown the high level of soap that makes it useful in a variety of weather also causes some very minor bore consistency issues which might be corrected with a better gellant matrix (the binder, in this case metal soap, that holds it all together and allows a softer mix to be made than would normally stand hot weather or hot barrels). I've long held that the gellant is the double-edged but necessary sword in a good all-temperature bullet lube, but we've tried just about everything there is to try and all of it has problems. The best lubes we've seen so far have a mixture of gellants and I had been aiming at refining the SL-series gellant portion since we got the waxes and oils figured out pretty well.
fiver
Well-Known Member
the only pick at it I can really think of is it really needs to be used sparingly.
believe it or not LG is the one that done the comparison.
he was attempting to once again take over the world and show his lube choice as being superior but all he showed is it doesn't lube as well as the 68-B does.
all that to say be prepared to re-work your loads some with the new lube, it will generally lower your velocity's.
believe it or not LG is the one that done the comparison.
he was attempting to once again take over the world and show his lube choice as being superior but all he showed is it doesn't lube as well as the 68-B does.
all that to say be prepared to re-work your loads some with the new lube, it will generally lower your velocity's.
Ian
Notorious member
Sort of. Barn worked up SL-71B (added paraffin and tweaked some of the proportions) and he and I both doped out several iterations and settled on one which we prefer and is what we're both using now. JonB's SL-68B actually has some paraffin in it by accident as he explained I think earlier in this thread and that might be why it works so well and it's basically the same thing as SL-71B. A little paraffin blended in to the wax portion (5-10% of the wax) helps with the cold-start flyer especially in cold weather and changes the overall cold friction of the bore condition to be more like it is when hot. I'll look for the recipe because honestly I don't remember exactly what's in it.
Ian
Notorious member
OK, here's the super-simple short version of soap lube that seems to work the best. Gman, Barn, and I are all using it to very good effect. It shoots well no matter how many grooves are filler or how big they are, works in all temps, holds up in hot gun barrels, and has very little tendency to cold-start from a seasoned barrel. It also doesn't seem sensitive to barrel finish, meaning hand-lapped is just as good as old and pitted, once seasoned. It won't melt off the bullets in extreme heat and it doesn't leave a greasy coating all over the outside of a revolver like most lubes will.
Equal parts by weight:
Wax from taper candles (relatively high melt-point paraffin plus Vybar 103 so they don't slump)
Filtered beeswax
High-temperature microcrystalline wax (blending several different molecular weights preferred, try for 160°F final melt point)
Vaseline
Vaseline, again
Fresh, damp Ivory soap straight from the wrapper
2% of the above combined weight or volume castor bean oil from the pharmacy.
Notes on this recipe:
Equal parts by weight:
Wax from taper candles (relatively high melt-point paraffin plus Vybar 103 so they don't slump)
Filtered beeswax
High-temperature microcrystalline wax (blending several different molecular weights preferred, try for 160°F final melt point)
Vaseline
Vaseline, again
Fresh, damp Ivory soap straight from the wrapper
2% of the above combined weight or volume castor bean oil from the pharmacy.
Notes on this recipe:
- Taper candle wax can be reduced to 10% of the total wax portion but 1/3 is fine. Paraffin increases cooled firmness but also increases thixotropy of the lube. Vybar in taper candles is a polymer stabilizer which increases melt point, sheen, and hardness.
- The larger the spectrum of carbon chain lengths represented in the microwax and paraffin wax/oil portions, the better. Microwaxes and modern USP Vaseline represent very narrow fractions which leave very big notches carbon chain length curve which affect the rate of melt and thixotropic properties. The fewer these notches, the more linear and predictable the lube will be. Ingredients which have not been overly-refined work best.
- Polyolester oil can be substituted for the castor bean oil, but I still prefer the unique heat-seeking properties of castor. DO NOT use more than 2% of the total volume of lube as it will make the bore too slick and cause flyers. For low-velocity shooting, castor is not needed but it never hurts. The beeswax in this recipe supplies adequate mono and diesters for EP and boundary lubrication and for HV boost the castor really helps lubrication at the land engraves at high velocity/torque.
- The Vaseline portion can be improved by substituting a portion of slack wax, transmission assembly lubricant, and plain white mineral oil, but this isn't necessary in most cases. This portion (1/3 the total) is used to plasticize the waxes and soap and is the ingredient which controls final lube "hardness". Adjust as necessary to suit. I prefer a very soft lube, about like Play-Doh or a little softer even, and this recipe produces that. Don't judge your lube's consistency right after it cools, give it at least 24 hours because things are still going on inside the lube after it cools which affect hardness and thixotropic properties. Vaseline also provides the only significant "oil" in the recipe, and it is a paraffin oil. Do not use any kind of engine oil, GL-5 gear lube, or other API group III oils as they are too slippery. ATF in the form of Dexron III is a very light (SAE 7-10 weight) paraffin oil that can be used to modify viscosity, but don't add too much. 2-3% is sufficient to make a noticeable difference in lube viscosity without affecting the friction characteristics of the lube.
- Micro-crystalline wax specifications may be difficult to obtain. Buying a variety of them from candle-making supply houses may be the best bet. This is important since I've made and tested beaucoup recipes employing and isolating one particular microwax and doing so presents problems. Try to blend microwaxes having a variety of melt points averaging about 160°F or so. Chain lengths of 22-80 represented equally would be nice, but one at the top, one at the bottom, and one in the middle is adequate. If all else fails just buy 10 lbs of Blendedwaxes BW-430 and if your lube comes out too soft after 24 hours of rest, reduce the Vaseline portion a little.
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Ian
Notorious member
Yes, equal parts by weight, so two parts Vaseline and one part each paraffin, micro, beeswax, and fresh damp soap (water content included in weight), and whatever all that amounts to take 2% and add that much castor oil.
I find that 2 ounces per part is a good number, easy to manage in a 2-quart saucepan. Managing the heat is very important here, need to get the stuff to the melt point of the soap real quick without burning it and immediately cool it down. 2 ounces each will give you 3/4 lb of finished lube which is quite a lot actually. The instructions are scattered all over but here it is again:
Do this outside, period. Need an open gas flame for the cooking (fish fryer burner or in some cases a high-btu side burner on a grill. A Coleman stove will also suffice. Put the paraffin and microwax wax, Vaseline, and castor in the pot and peel off the correct amount of soap from the bar with a pocketknife into the pot. In a second pot or double-boiler, melt the beeswax without burning it and keep it ready at about 180-200F. Heat the first pot mildly until all wax has melted and the soap begins to foam like shaving cream. Stir and beat the foam down, control heat or it will volcano on you and make an unbelievable mess. Once the water cooks off completely (about 10 minutes at 225-250) and it is a calm mix that resembles a bowl of Cream o' Wheat, heat at high heat while stirring constantly until it becomes FULLY TRANSLUCENT. It will be smoking badly at that point but it will suddenly thin out like 30 wt. engine oil and be fully liquid at about 460°F. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT because if it isn't fully liquid, the soap won't gel the waxes correctly. Once it is liquid, (and don't ever stop stirring it or it will burn) dump in your melted beeswax and keep stirring on high heat until it resumes the liquid phase. The BW will quench and gel the soap just a bit but bring it back up to the soap's fully liquid melt point before cooling again. The instant the beeswax hits the liquid mix it will begin to scorch, so seconds count here getting it all back up to temp and cooled down. BW scorches at 357°F so crash-cooling the lube is a must. I pour the liquified, smoking mess into foil-lined pans which are sitting in a larger pan of ice water. Just pour it in and let it set up on its own, no stirring necessary or desired. This will make a smooth, homogenous lube with no lumps. If you disturb the lube while in the re-gelling state it will be lumpy but perfectly functional. The lube ideally will be a beige color but the beeswax almost always scorches to some degree and turns it a reddish brown. If you scorch it badly, it will smell sour and look like Chicory coffee....but nobody has convinced me that the scorchedness affects the shooting qualities at all. It is far more important to have the soap fully melted with the beeswax in the mix than it is to avoid scorching the wax.
To clean out your pot and utensils, just wash with hot water and a sponge, there's already soap in the mix!
I find that 2 ounces per part is a good number, easy to manage in a 2-quart saucepan. Managing the heat is very important here, need to get the stuff to the melt point of the soap real quick without burning it and immediately cool it down. 2 ounces each will give you 3/4 lb of finished lube which is quite a lot actually. The instructions are scattered all over but here it is again:
Do this outside, period. Need an open gas flame for the cooking (fish fryer burner or in some cases a high-btu side burner on a grill. A Coleman stove will also suffice. Put the paraffin and microwax wax, Vaseline, and castor in the pot and peel off the correct amount of soap from the bar with a pocketknife into the pot. In a second pot or double-boiler, melt the beeswax without burning it and keep it ready at about 180-200F. Heat the first pot mildly until all wax has melted and the soap begins to foam like shaving cream. Stir and beat the foam down, control heat or it will volcano on you and make an unbelievable mess. Once the water cooks off completely (about 10 minutes at 225-250) and it is a calm mix that resembles a bowl of Cream o' Wheat, heat at high heat while stirring constantly until it becomes FULLY TRANSLUCENT. It will be smoking badly at that point but it will suddenly thin out like 30 wt. engine oil and be fully liquid at about 460°F. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT because if it isn't fully liquid, the soap won't gel the waxes correctly. Once it is liquid, (and don't ever stop stirring it or it will burn) dump in your melted beeswax and keep stirring on high heat until it resumes the liquid phase. The BW will quench and gel the soap just a bit but bring it back up to the soap's fully liquid melt point before cooling again. The instant the beeswax hits the liquid mix it will begin to scorch, so seconds count here getting it all back up to temp and cooled down. BW scorches at 357°F so crash-cooling the lube is a must. I pour the liquified, smoking mess into foil-lined pans which are sitting in a larger pan of ice water. Just pour it in and let it set up on its own, no stirring necessary or desired. This will make a smooth, homogenous lube with no lumps. If you disturb the lube while in the re-gelling state it will be lumpy but perfectly functional. The lube ideally will be a beige color but the beeswax almost always scorches to some degree and turns it a reddish brown. If you scorch it badly, it will smell sour and look like Chicory coffee....but nobody has convinced me that the scorchedness affects the shooting qualities at all. It is far more important to have the soap fully melted with the beeswax in the mix than it is to avoid scorching the wax.
To clean out your pot and utensils, just wash with hot water and a sponge, there's already soap in the mix!
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