Strange stuff making ingots today

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
So, I have been given some lead by fellow shooters at the club. The sources vary. I used pencils to test hardness and thought it was mostly about a 25:1 alloy equivalent. Who knows what the alloy actually is. I found I had to hit the varioius ingot with a file to get a new, clean surface for my pencils to get a good reading. If I tried using them on the oxidized exterior, the 6B would skate off, giving the impression that the lead was not pure lead. So, most tested at 25:1 so I tossed it all in my big propane melting pot and mixed it all together. When I poured ingots I tested them and they all tested to be pure lead. Does lead age harden that much if it is pure lead to give a hardness reading similar to 25:1?

The other interesting tidbit, is I had two big pieces that tested as pure lead. Once was a square 5 lb. plumbers ingot marked as caulking lead. The other was a 1 inch thick slab that supposedly came out of some lab. I cleaned the pot and put those two in together. When they melted, the color of the dross was bizarre. It looked like molten gold. It would change colors and since I'm red/green color bling I asked the wife to take a look. She said it looks like gold, brass and copper, depending on where she looked. It all pretty much came off as dross.

Here are some pics of the dross. The color changed as it cooled.20231023_164753a.jpg20231023_164920a.jpg20231023_164932a.jpg

And along with this strange dross, the ingot all came out blue. Some are all blue, other are like a marbleized blue. My only guess is there was a trace element in that thick slab intended to dissuade theft. GE used to put trace elements in their copper because employees would steal it to scrap it for the money. Here's a pic of the ingots. The ones at the top are not the same alloy. The ones below those are the blue ingots. You can see marbleizing.
20231023_165143a.jpg
Anybody have any idea what the dross and blue color is???
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
As a guess, without analysis, I would say that it is a combination of one or all of these: calcium, strontium, or cadmium. All three are/were used in maintenance free batteries for cars.

The dross of all three is very toxic and if it gets wet is gives off stibine or arsine, toxic gases. You did not get a prize.
 
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Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
The slab was commercially made, not something someone cast themselves. Same for the plumber's ingot. I've always stayed away from salvaging battery lead for the reasons you mention, Rick.

Glad I melted and cast separate ingots.
 

popper

Well-Known Member
Did the 'lab' wait the proper time for radioactive decay? I got some that looked like that from medical containers. I don't glow - yet!
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
yep.
pure turns blue.

1" thick slab about 12"s long and 6"s wide?
the ones i got like that had a little antimony in them.
about 1.5% airc, they make good jacketed bullet cores.
 
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Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Strontium also fluxes off weird yellow like that. It is used often to give an non ferris alloy a web type grain structure. Making it able to hold up to vibration or a physical pounding without cracking or separating. IE making lead foils.

It does not like staying in suspension in a lot of alloys. In the molten state.

Strontium separates from it easily with fluxing. And a slight stir.
When it is added to a material it is usually done after fluxing and filtering, during the cooling process.

It could also just be lead oxide.
Don't worry about it. It's all gone now.

Just don't lick or breath the dross LOL.
 
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Dusty Bannister

Well-Known Member
Any chance you just over heated the melt? That will result in a lot of lead oxide forming and when you pour the ingots, they will have a purple color. On the other hand, a very hard alloy, high in antimony will cast purple bullets. With a constant heat source and a smaller mass of lead in the pot, it will be easy to over heat the melt.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I did read a year or so ago that overheating lead will make it turn blue like that. I use a propane fired burner, basically one of those turkey friers that were burning down garages about 10 years ago. I crank it up all the way and never bother to check the temp. I can see overheating producing a lot of oxide and as stated in my opening post, some of these lead had to be filed thru the oxide layer to get an accurate hardness reading with my pencils.

I feel a little better now.
 

Dusty Bannister

Well-Known Member
From an existing, but not very active email list. NOT my post to the list.

Subject: [CB-L] Purple & yellow haze on top of a melt
Date: 2010-06-28 12:08 am
To: <cb-l@yahoogroups.com>;


The "after a while yellow" as you described it, is lead oxide. Also
known as litharge, monoxide or ( PbO)
Starts out as a buff yellow and can turn darker yellow and can have some
with a hint of red. If you do not flux and skim your melt well, it will
coat the sides of your casting furnace as you remove melt from your
casting pot. It can build up in thickness on the sides of the pot over
time. If one allows this to happen, the life of the heating element for
your casting furnace will be reduced.

Litharge in quantity is made by cooking a lead alloy at temperatures
that you noted in the presents of oxygen. In a casting pot where
litharge is forming on the surface of your melt, humidity seems to play
a role. You do not offer any hint as to what part of the world you hail
from, so I can not even guess if this is something you might see more
of than folks in a very dry region. The alloy rich in lead and scant on
other alloy material, such as tin and antimony, will make greater
quantities of litharge. Folks casting musket balls, and round balls
intended for the muzzle loader, with mostly lead and a touch of tin,
will tend to see much more of this material than some one using alloy
rich material.

The very surface of the melt is where lead oxide will form as this is
the area in contact with air. One skims it off with the other dross
that floats up to the surface of the melt.

This material will dust and can become air born during the process of
skimming and dumping into a container of some sort, for disposal later
on. This is the stuff that is most likely give a careless person,
health related problems.

Best to limit the making litharge and take steps to limit your exposure
to it. Not knowing who you are and your past experience, I am not sure
how much of this you already know. I assume this is a good place to stop.

I have seen the thin sheen of purple on WW alloy and do not know what it
is. It will even leave a trace of its existence on the surface of a
cooled ingot. When this happens, it is a sign for me to reduce the
temperature of the alloy melt.

I have not experienced any problem in using ingots that came from such
material when casting projectiles and as a result, pay little attention
to it now.. ignorance is bliss???
 

popper

Well-Known Member
210 PB has half life of 22 yrs. 95% of lead is stable. Radio activity is the release of energy from unstable atom to stable. I was actually joking in my comment.
 
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Michael

Active Member. Uh/What
I have found the half life of Pb 210 very unpredictable. But when it goes off, it goes very fast, even then, how fast varies a lot........

:headscratch:
 
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Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I spoke to Charlie at the club. Charlie has been casting bullets for longer than most of us have been on the planet. He said the blue is probably from a small amount of copper in the lead. He's seen it before. It could be purple. My red/green color blind makes me struggle with colors like pink and purple. The litharge as described in that list post is pretty much exactly what I experienced from the color perspective and from the tendency to stick to the pot. I did have the burned cranked up because I wanted to be done. I only have the 1 four cavity Lyman ingot mold. Not sure why I've never picked up another one. I really hate making large batches of alloy ingot. But I do appreciate having them when it comes time to cast bullets.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
I use regular ingot molds and then I got tired of the small output capacity. To cure that problem I use muffin pans (2 pound) and small bread pans (4 pound)
IMG_3468.jpeg
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I like the one pound moulds because they are 3 1/2 inches long and stack perfectly between the studs of the shop walls. Then they take up no floor space. Only bad part is that the spiders like to nest in the cracks.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well here in the great white north, well sub Arctic walls are 2x6 and some times 2x8, but always filled with insulation not lead.
IMG_3470.jpeg
And they stack just fine. When I have a spider problem I just leave the door open for the day.
IMG_3469.jpeg
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
I like the Lee because with 2 molds I can put out pretty fast. At least fast enough for me.
Then I store in shipping boxes from work. If I flip the ingots back and forth I can get exactly 18 lbs in a box. They stack nicely. And 18 lbs puts the pot right where I like too start it. Plus the little 1/2 lbs work nicely for tin or lino adding.
 

Tomme boy

Well-Known Member
I use the SS condiment cups from walmart for ingots. They work perfect and are cheap. If you use the smaller Lee pot they don't work well as they are too big to fit with that angled rod.