Wadcutter mold design

[Monochrome]

After reading through several years worth of articles from the online magazine sites, promoting the use of wadcutters loaded warm to hot for self defense in small guns, something hit me as being strange.

The Federal American Eagle 38 special RNL 158 grain generic plinking ammo features a small dished surface in the base to promote obturation. Although every fired bullet i have recovered has NEVER had any sign of the outer edge of this concave dish EXPANDING OUTWARDS, I was hit with the question

Why has a dished surface like this never actually been done to wadcutter? If loaded "dish" down, youd get better obturation. And loaded "dish" up, youd get expansion. Think on the possibility of your wimpy little wadcutter actually expanding on a varmint it hits. sure you may need to load it to 900 fps but ALLIANT has valid load data to push a DEWC to 1200 FPS.. in a handgun.

 

[L Ross]

I have adopted Outpost 75's recommendation for wadcutters. Double ended wadcutters with the sprue cut loaded out. The other end is a perfect base. I tumble lube in BLL, unsized, sit them on top of 3.5 grains of Bullseye. If they are a snug fit in one of my guns I run those through the Lee Factory Crimp die that post sizes the loaded ammo with a carbide ring in the mouth of the die.
Those double ended wadcutter pour our of my Magma caster like rain. 25 lbs. of wadcutters will hold me for awhile.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

............And loaded "dish" up, youd get expansion......

I understand that you are writting about a "dished" base and not a true hollowbase, but I'm going to chime in here.
The reverse loaded hollow base wadcutter used as an expediant hollow point is one of those myths that just refuses to die.

I can't say what the results would be with a reverse loaded "dish" base WC (cup base) but I can talk about the reverse loaded Hollow Base WC - the concept SUCKS! I mean it sucks on every level.
The accuracy is terrible beyond card table ranges. The skrit either peels off and reduces the mass of the projectile or it folds over on the bullet and adds nothing to the performance of the load. I tested this concept years ago and there's a reason there's no factory loaded reverse hollowbase wadcutters - it looks cool but it doesn't work.

I'm with L. Ross and his comments above and I'm also with Outpost75 - a solid wadcutter loaded reasonably hot will give you great frontal area and a lot of performance.

I don't know if a cup base WC loaded backwards would give you anything better than a solid WC without a cup base forward.
And, expansion isn't everything. accuracy and penetration are far more useful.

 

[300BLK]

358432 is all you need to know

 

[Petrol & Powder]

358432 is all you need to know

That will get you very close to perfection.

A weight that is known to be compatable with standard twist rates and velocities, as much frontal area as possible and a known accurate design.

 

[358156 hp]

Reversing HB wadcutters has been going on for ages with mixed results. As mentioned before, the solid WC seems to be the hot ticket for SD use, and is very commonly recommended for light revolvers in the J frame class. To answer your question more accurately, yes. But it never really seemed to catch on. You're very close to the old "manstopper" design shown below. Apologies for the orange background, it seemed like the thing to do at the time. Ideal 360270:

 

[Ian]

358432 is all you need to know

Second that.

Lyman 358432 - 148 Gr.

Many say they can't tell any difference in the performance ( accuracy ) of one 148 Gr. WC vs another one. That may be true ? ? This one is the Lyman 358432 , 148 gr. version ( There is also a heavier 162 gr. version ) My grandson Trevor and I have been shooting these 148's. They can...

www.artfulbullet.com

I also like the DEWC loaded as Outpost suggests. I drew up the Accurate 36-135W for my fixed-sight .38s that tend to shoot high at close ranges with standard-weight bullets. I notices there is a 36-135U which is a copy of the 358432 in a little lighter version, someone else must have had the same issue as me but really liked the 432 enough to have a custom, lighter version made.

 

[CZ93X62]

I am not a big fan of wadcutter-design bullets for revolvers. I own exactly 2 wadcutter moulds--Lyman # 358432 in its 160 grain version and Lyman #313492, the 92 grain 32 caliber version of #358432. I have run both from 700-1200 FPS, and both retain accuracy consistently through that entire velocity range. They can SHOOT, for darn sure. Both do a fine job on varmints and game.

Bias alert, up front......in my world, wadcutters are a target bullet--and a very good one at that. They can flat-out SHOOT. The great majority of the wadcutter bullets I have shot have been of the swaged & hollow-based commersh varieties--Hornady, Speer, and some very greasy Remington critters that make a mess while loading but group very well at 25 yards.

When I want to see what a 32 or 38/357 revolver can REALLY do, I run a HBWC at 750-775 FPS from the arm. Alas, the excellent Hornady 32 caliber HBWC has gone out-of-print if the website has accurate info; the most accurate handgun shooting I ever did was with those bullets and WW-231 in a Walther GSP-C in 32 SWL.

To be fair, Lyman #313492 fired in my S&W Model 16-4 can almost keep up with the Walther--and can do that to 1200 FPS+. It remains the most accurate sideiron I have ever owned. Similar things can be said of the RCBS 32-98-SWC bullet as well. SWCs are a first and last love in revolvers, so here we see my heavy bias.

According to the REAL wadcutter mavens (like my little sister the LT that shot PPC for our agency) the HBWC are reputed to lose stability at about 65 yards and tumble, and that is a safety element favoring their use over RN 158 grain Crowd Pleaser rounds from the 1950s. As an aside, I DO KNOW that I didn't start hitting jackrabbits and ground squirrels past about 50-60 yards until I switched to SWC bullets running harder than 750 FPS--but the bullets were likely not the weakest element in those transactions. Enough said.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

It would be difficult to estimate the number of HBWC’s I’ve shot but it’s a lot. Mostly Speer and Hornady bullets.

After I started casting, I completely abandoned the HBWC and now only cast/load/shoot solid WC’s.

I don’t share Al’s mild aversion to wadcutters and find the bullet type to be useful. In fact, in 32 S&W Long, the WC is my only bullet. I may someday add the RCBS SWC to that lineup but I’m in no hurry to do so.

In 38 Special, I have two “Standard” wadcutter loadings using the same bullet. A target load that is pushed by 3.1 grains of Bullseye and a full power load using the same Accurate 36-154W bullet over 3.5 grains of Bullseye. I load the full charge WC loads in nickel plated casings to distinguish them from the target load that uses an identical bullet.

While I agree the SWC of RNFP is probably a more universally useful bullet style with broader range of applications, I have a fondness for the solid wadcutter.

And, as Al correctly points out, the WC is a target bullet and the useful range is limited by the bullet’s stability, which becomes iffy beyond 50 yards. In fact, it may even become unstable slightly under 50 yards under many conditions. The full caliber flat point of the WC makes it very useful at shorter ranges ,

 

[Monochrome]

wadcutter stability was a twist rate issue.

The thing is, i am thinkin a modified cup point base/bullet. Instead of it being so deep draw the cross section of your typical LEE tumble lube 148 WC. ie a solid rectangle. Now draw a verital center line. And where the centerline meets the horizontal surface of the bullet, draw a dot 1mm to the inside of the bullet. now sketch a curve from the center to the outside edge. Thats the cup point/cup base.

would expand better then a normal wad cutter of ANY kind.

 

[StrawHat]

Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com

A DEWC at full velocity, penetrates straight and deep. When i carried the small bore, I carried this load.

Kevin

 

[fiver]

cup points work best at like 1800 fps.

 

[Monochrome]

cup points work best at like 1800 fps.

For rifles perhaps, but i have managed to get the Speer HBWC to compress the front portion until the bullet lost 1/3 of its over all length.

That velocity, and even that same hardness of lead, with a cup pount should have had some expansion.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Why are you so fixated on bullet expansion?

 

[fiver]

the point is the velocity and the meplat have to work together.

too much stress and you break the bullet.
not enough and nothing happens.
changing the alloy around will help, but your just trying to pick pepper flakes off the ground at that point.

 

[Monochrome]

the point is the velocity and the meplat have to work together.

too much stress and you break the bullet.
not enough and nothing happens.
changing the alloy around will help, but your just trying to pick pepper flakes off the ground at that point.

Well since 1980 Hornady has published loading data for their swaged HBWC for velocity up to 950 fps in 38 special cases.

Hodgdon still has loading data for 357 - pistol hbwc loads that are topping 1000 fps with max data. Oddly, they are using load data that ive seen considered to be DEWC only load data in older sources. And they still validate those 950 fps 38 special loads, yes special and not +p

Interesting times...

 

[Walks]

This eases My mind a bit. I'll take out a few boxes of 5yr old ammo. and see how they work out.

 

[358156 hp]

This eases My mind a bit. I'll take out a few boxes of 5yr old ammo. and see how they work out.

You can always fire the first several rounds single-shot and inspect the barrel bore & cylinders before firing a second shot until you reach your conclusion of whether or not you should continue.

 

[beagle]

My thoughts on wadcutters.
I guess a lot of us started pistol loading with a .38 Special wadcutter. I know I did in an old M&P Model 10 S&W. Served me well and the only mould I could find was a Lyman 358495. So good, there's still one in my mould drawer. Later on, shooting dad's Model 28 Smith, I still used the 358495. Then I got a little older and a Python came my way. I was still struggling along with the 358495 but had some friends in the military who gave me access to the #50 H&G and although to me, not a wadcutter, the #73 H&G.

I stopped counting on the Python when the odometer went over 20,000 and most were .38 wadcutters. No better bullet for woods walking, plinking and small game hunting. The majority were 358495s and #50 H&Gs.

On Cast Boolits one of the members evaluated all of the wadcutter bullets in the .38 Special and posted results on Castpics. As I recall 359495 came in first, H&G #50 was second and I sent some #73 H&Gs and they came in pretty high. You might reference this article.

What more could you want for a .38 Special genera purpose load? Stingy on lead and almost any fast burning pistol powder works. Light and fairly compact to carry. Accurate up to 50 yards and select your recoil level with powder charge.

Killed several rabbits with dad's model 36, bunch of squirrels, many snakes and turtles, one dumb crow that flew in and lit in the top of a gum tree at abou 75 yards and untold thousands of rats at the city dump when such sport was allowed. 3.0 of Bullseye was the most used load in the Python.

Accuracy good to 50 yards and pretty decent at 100 berm shooting clay pidgeons,

Me and my son once burned about 600 rounds of this load on a military range set up for sniper practice. 125 yard steel sillouhette was good for about 5 hits out of a cylinder on a calm day off a rest. A half sillouhette was good for 2-3 hits at 200 out of a cylinder. This was off a sandbag. Then there was a tank hulk way out. One dry day we broke out the spotting scope and I actually hit it with wadcutters although many misses were logged.

From my experiences, wadcutters either fly true or start to go unstable about 70 yards out.

Now, I've messed with match factory wadcutters, Very accurate for 50 yards, Reverse seated HBWCs not worth the trouble.

Cast HBWC are the same. Think I have 3 moulds of various weights running from 141-160 grains. The 358395. At normal velocities the base does expand.

Written somewhere there is a warning to beware of blowouts on HBWCs. Either normally seated or backwards. I have seen one on a military range. Lucky it was detected.

On any HBWC, keep pressure limits within standard velocities. In testing HB bullets, I found that higher velocities caused HB bullets to be inaccurate, be it .38 or .44.

So, my thoughts are, select a good wadcutter mould, see if it shoots for you. If it does, you got a gem for plinking, small game hunting, target or SD and you will not be dissapointed if you adjust the throttle approprately./beagle

 

[Monochrome]

I aint denying it, wadcutters are fun. But when you look at the actual load data, and you can find standard pressure loads that are pushing 9-950 fps in a 38 special you have to grin.. because the "ideal" traditional loads are often under their starting loads.