Witchcraft,chaos and stuff that makes no sense

[RBHarter]

I've been shooting a 45 Colts BlackHawk for a decade or so and had several loads that delivered the goods . No groups that rate for bragging but it's been good enough for me and my needs . Last weekend I added a 45 ACP cylinder to the mix and it immediately delivered about the same groups I get from the slightly +P loads in Colts . It's a 7.5 inch and of hunting grade and shoots as same ,after all we can't all be Elmer .

The natural progression was to secure a companion rifle and I did that 2 yr ago . A 16" Taurus 92'. I shot some of my practice ammo , a true Colts load at 8 gr of Unique with a ACWW 452-255 RNFP and it shot about a 3" group and about the same with a like load under a 452-252 SWC . Both out to 75 yd from field positions. Happy with that and knowing that the rifle would gain a little over the revolver . So from Rondy to hog camp I went .
At hog camp the 1050 fps 452-252 ,which I hadn't shot in the rifle but that had shot lots of all 6 on into under 5" at 50yd in the revolver , wouldn't deliver ,shots went wild by ft at the 50 yd site in berm . I figured the lighter load would get to 1000 fps and that would do for any hog under 200# and under 50 yd ,which it did 3x .

I went to work on load tuning and the 452-252 was a complete waste in the rifle . A paper patched 430426 shot well over 18-20gr of H110 but was to long to be more than single fed reliably . It was modified to cast at .448. The 454424 worked well and was put to the task delivering 2" groups again from field positions at 50 and 75 yd . The load let me down just past 75yd .

At a shoot later I popped golf balls and shot from solid rests and all of the loads shot as expected out to 75yd . I jumped on some steel at 100 yd ..... It lobbed bullets all over ,like 8 ft from POA and they were going over the berm . Being a hold over windage shooter I held under , lower and lower for the hit, at a distance of 78 yd it hit point of hold ,the hold under was that far .

All of this forced me to blame the rifle , the load ,poor shooting etc.
It took months for me to whip out the Strelok and run the range out to 200 yd in 10 yd steps ....... 1110 at 80yd 1000 something at 100.
Apparently in this case the SWC and even the RNFP 255 -265 gr bullets begin to tumble between 75-80 yd and like a rising or curve ball pitch develop a wicked curve . What annoys me is that a High Point 45 ACP rifle didn't do it with 45-200 SWC or the 454424. Well aside from a 1-16 vs 1-30 twist the ACP didn't get super sonic .

I'm bent on getting a 100 yd huntable group out of this and it's sister a 20" pre safety rifle . The only way is to beat the aerodynamics with shape or by shear mass . With a 1-30 twist and a Colts case the choices are limited at best . I swapped some 44 mag brass for a 458-350 Lee single and found some 300 gr TC commercial case I had laying around. The 1st test taught me that a long set of work ups with the data rich 300 wasn't going to be a lot of fun . But they did make round holes and that's something even if it was at just 25 yd .

Now the part that earns the title .

The Lee 457-350 RNFP drops at 456 and 353 gr . Are you surprised there's no data ? Me neither. However under the heading of if the powder is slow enough and a low pressure profile then even a compressed load won't hurt too bad , l boldly loaded 18 and 18.5 gr of 4198 and the monster in 6 cases .
Round holes and 2 outta 3 touching . Best guess since some goober forgot his Chrony is about 600 fps . With the primers ,CCI Lg Pistol Magnum , being concave still to the dimple I fell like as much as 20gr may be OK but I'll work it .2@ a time up to 900 fps or a full primer contact that looks like the H110/265 gr load whichever happens 1st . Unless I chicken out due to the recoil .

 

[Brad]

I shoot a 300 gr cast bullet in my Marlin 1894 CB in 45 Colt. Shoots very well with 10-10.5 gr of 105 surplus, a powder similar to AA 5. Plenty accurate as far as I care to shoot it. Took a deer with it too. Runs 1100 fps or so in the rifle, 900 in my 4 5/8" Blackhawk.

Not a whole bunch of data out there for bullets like that in 45 Colt. This is where I found some good starting points. http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

 

[Elric]

Not a whole bunch of data out there for bullets like that in 45 Colt. This is where I found some good starting points. http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm

Wow, good stuff for Ruger SA owners. I would read this article....

"AGAIN, ALL THE INFORMATION IN THIS REPORT PERTAINS ONLY TO NEW MODEL RUGER SINGLE ACTION BISLEY OR BLACKHAWK REVOLVERS."

Yes, the OP says right out this is for a Blackhawk.

"Another trend I have seen lately is the loading up of the new Rifles being chambered for the .45 Colt. Namely the Winchester 94 angle eject. The same writers that are now loading the rifles to a before unheard of pressure level of 40,000 CUP in this caliber are the same ones that belittle and talk down the .45 Colt in a sixgun. Does the weak case that limits the Sixguns abilities suddenly transform into a magical wonderall of magnum strength when chambered in one of these lever action wonders? I find their investigation of the facts at hand less than complete. I have rebarreled a few 94s in .45 Colt that had chambers so oversize than factory ammo would split cases and separate heads upon the first firing. Factory ammo is loaded to around 13,000 CUP even though the industry standard is 15,900 CUP. Personally I prefer shooting my heavy loads in well made sixguns rather than the current trend of rifles out there chambered in .45 Colt."

 

[Rick]

I'll be quite interested in the results from the 4198 loads. Way back when I was shooting the FA 454 in silhouette 4198 turned out to be my match load. I'll need to look up what the charge was but it was enough that a drop tube was required to get it all in the case and still be able to seat a bullet. Never did try it in the venerable old Colt round and I used a 240 gr bullet as opposed to heavy for caliber.

It never was my desire to shoot the 454 in 40-60-80 round matches but I did want to shoot the FA. When FA first started building revolvers you had two choices. 1> Shoot the 454. 2> don't shoot an FA. It's all they made at first and I definitely needed a load that wouldn't require the fillings in my teeth replaced after every match. I did a lot of load development, used R-7 for awhile and settled on I-4198. The most popular 44 mag load was a 240 gr bullet at about 1380 fps from a 10 inch DW revolver. My 454 4198 load was 1430 fps with a 240 gr bullet. It shot quite well and I did pretty well with it.
.

 

[Brad]

My Marlin has a huge chamber. Split cases do occur after 7-10 loads. Never noticed a difference in case life based on loads, even lower pressure loads expand the case to fill the huge chamber.

I have shot much heavier loads in both revolver and rifle and decided that a 300 gr bullet at 900 in the revolver was manageable yet hit hard. I far prefer it to the 250 at 1300.

 

[Ian]

I too solved some major accuracy/stability issues downrange by using the Lee 457-340-RF. My H&R carbine and Ruger NEW Vaquero (small frame) both liked that bullet over a near case full of Reloder 7. They liked it even more with a card base wad and a teensy bit of compression. It's been a while since I loaded those rounds and will have to check some I have in stock to see how deeply I seated the bullet, but it would fit the chamber of the NV so I suspect it was crimped over the front shoulder band. No idea if it would feed in a lever. ~13 grains of Reloder 7 in Starline brass with CCI 300 primers was the load, probably in the +P territory but again, I made this up from scratch with some help from Felix @ CB a long time ago and have no idea what the actual pressure is.

 

[RBHarter]

I'm not sure it makes me all warm and fuzzy to shoot a 30KCUP load in a Rossi 92' but in retrospect I was well into the 25KPSI range with the previous loads .

I do have the ugly chamber mentioned in the article sort of . Both rifles seem to be tapered with about a 484 mouth and a larger body ,like use the 303 Brit tape trick to get the fronts 2/3 to fit size 1/3 so the bullet stays put the get the bottom lined out ......the 0 ring would probably work better . For a sizer I use a Lee 45 ACP FCD for a 480 OD and less case working on the mouth half .
The H4198 seems pretty safe at this point and seeing that someone else has been here ish is a relief .

The article has data for a 350gr cast also so it is book marked as a reference.
I don't see me running these in the BH the 300 gr in the rifle was at my limit for fun to shoot.
I have shot some 260-265 gr loads to 1200fps but didn't care for the vigorous recoil.

 

[Brad]

Try a 300 at 1150-1200 in the revolver. Gets your attention and right now!
I shot a pig with a 265 WFN at 1500 or so years back. Hit it right behind the ear. Dropped right there then got back up. Two quick follow ups and she was down. That was with the Marlin. Looked over and saw a smaller pig dead too. First shot penetrated the bigger pig, exited, and hit the smaller one in the head.

I have had horrible luck with the 255 RNFP Lee at ranges much over 50 yards. Like was said in the OP it just goes to hell after a certain point.

 

[Brad]

Oh yeah, I bought a Marlin 45-70 after that. Decided to let the 45 Colt be what it is and not make it into a short 45-70.

 

[KHornet]

And that was a wise move! A lot of people expect more than some ctgs are designed to be.
Some times they get away with their expectations, but more often they do not.

 

[RBHarter]

The hogs we are killing are practically trained dogs . I've killed 5 now from powder burn to 47 yd the rifles are completely up the the spot and stock and blind hunts with either of the Unique or H110 loads and I have no illusions of making a magnum out of a Colts. If I need more authority I have a 358 Winchester available and if I wanted to swap it for a 450 Marlin , 458 American or a 460 S&W it would certainly be no problem to do so .
All I want is to shoot a 100 yd group with round holes and know that if it were needed to be used past 75 yd a load would be available. Granted it's a completely in appropriate load from out in the weeds but that's OK for 5-10 shots on paper and a once in the field varmint .
I have plenty of tools available from 222 on up to 264 WM in calibers from 22-35 and pistols from 9mm Kurtz to the Colts in 38,40,45 plus Army,Navy 1858s ,a Dragoon and several 45 and 50 cal Hawkenesk rifles and 20,16&12 GA shotguns . Selecting a tool for the job is a no brainer and the tools have mostly been worked to under 1.5 inches at 100 with at least one full tilt load ......that 264 makes a mess under 200 yd even when detuned to a full tilt 06' . The 358 Win I'm sure would be very effective as an angry 357 mag and accuracy falls off with H322 at 2500 fps with a 35-230 SIL, down at 2100 over 4350 it's a joy to shoot and shoots clover leaves .
Even the 30 WCF is a joy to shoot . 19.5 gr of 4198 with a 312-155 was a load beyond my skill set with 5 presumably in 3 holes . The 32 Rem shoots 2 " and exceeds the load data by a very wide margin .
I even shoot paper patch in an SKS that I expect would lay down the hammer on a hog delivering some 1100ftlb at 100 yd . See the mushrooms in the avatar.

Back on the ranch .
Brad the data for the 4198 in 454 is of some interest if only as a guide to where it begins to climb fast in pressures.

 

[Ian]

With some specifics I could run the QL data for your preferred flavor of 4198 and get a pressure prediction.

 

[RBHarter]

Water volume, projectile length ,oal and bullet weight ?
I feel like I missed something .

I appreciate it .

 

[Ian]

Water volume of an actual partially-resized case (since you do as I do and use fire-formed, "neck sized" brass), trim length, projectile length, overall length, bullet weight (as cast), and powder brand/type. The most important thing to get correct is this information relating to loading density inside the case.

Your best estimate of X % fill with X grains, or better yet figure how many grains will yield 100% loading density at your preferred overall length (for reference/data verification purposes only) will aid greatly in getting an accurate prediction. Even slight OAL differences can have a drastic effect on peak pressure.

Give me the pressure (PSI or CUP) which you consider maximum for your purposes, and/or peak velocity you'd like to achieve and I'll run it with several numbers when I get home tonight. PSI is probably the most accurate to go with, but I don't know how that UOM compares with data you already may have.

Primer, alloy, neck tension, and jump distance to rifling seem to be irrelevant to QL but real-world differences will have a dramatic effect all their own.

 

[RBHarter]

It will be after 6 pm PDT before I can get any numbers give or take ,a sick kid ,OT,dinner ,dog excitement and 2qt of water .

 

[Ian]

No worries, I've been recovering from a bad case of the peoples this evening. I'll check back later or tomorrow night.

 

[RBHarter]

Case length average 5 cases . 1.278.
Lee 457-340 as cast weight 353.1 gr .
Length .8686 .
Case capacity.
Gross. 155.3
Tare. 111.2
Net . 44.1 water weight .
OAL 1.664
Seating depth .472

H4198 looks to be 100% at 25.0
H322 @ 23.0

I would like to hold to 25KPSI but 27-28 as an absolute maximum.
Realistically 850 fps will probably be enough but I would like to exceed 925 fps in a perfect set up I would get over 1000.
On hand powder include .
H4198
H322
I4350
I 4895
H110
SR 4756 .

The bore is 448x451 and 16"bbl that includes headspace .

 

[Ian]

OK, it's late but I hacked through a few runs, will do more later. The hack part came in with basically entering scratch data for the .457" as a .452. All disclaimers apply, typos are likely due to 1.5 hrs sleep in the last 36, all are merely QL's predictions based on info you gave me and my punchy self plugged in, etc, etc.

At 1.664" oal, .869" bullet seated to .483" in a 1.278" case, QL predicts 100% density of Hodgdon 4198 at 19.1 grains (standard capacity of 41.6 grains H20 filled to the mouth and sized to fit in an ideal chamber, mind you) and 1069 fps @ 19,249 PSI. Only 62.1% powder burn, which usually indicates pretty lousy consistency....but not always when the available case volume is completely full of powder. But bump the H20 overflow capacity to 44.1 to reflect your fireformed case bodies and your powder capacity at indicated seating depth becomes 21.2 grains of H4198 which bumps pressure to 21,268 PSI and 1154 fps and 66-something percent powder burn in the 16" bbl.

If you used RX7 you could go 21.8 grains to 100% fill and get 1175 fps at 18,505 PSI and 71% burn, which is still well above max standard pressures for anyone else reading this (RUGER ONLY etc. etc.) but quite mild for sturdy guns. I'm betting it would leave mummies strewn through the barrel and still shoot great groups.

For some reason I can't find SR4756 on the powder list, which is a shame because it would probably do very well for this.

10.0 grains of Ramshot True Blue should get you 1059 fps in a 16" bbl and 20.5K psi @ 100% burn in just under 5.5" of bullet travel, as a point of reference for a combo that will burn consistently even in a revolver. 14.0 grains of 2400 shows 1118 fps @ 16,745 PSI and 88% burn in 16". See where this is going?

Now, continuing the direction of diminishing returns and skipping over the aforementioned H4198 and RX7: IMR 4895 @ 22.6 grains (100%) musters 875 fps @ just under 10,682 psi, or predicted to be well under max standard pressure.....but only 38% burn in a 16" barrel may or may not shoot for schnitt. Note that results with an identical amount of HODGDON's flavor of 4895 were much higher in pressure, velocity, and burn percent, but don't go jump up and buy some just yet. H322 @22.0 grains is 100% and gets you just over 1K fps at just under 15k psi and a whopping 52% burn. Funny how those double-base, spherical powders get you more energy with less pressure, isn't it?

If I were you, and I am in a way because I do pretty much the same thing with similar guns, bullet, and goals, knowing what I know now I'd take a long look at 2400. Actually, I'm looking at several kegs of True Blue pretty hard, regardless of low loading density. Another thing to try is pack it full of H322 and see how well it groups, and do the same with RX-7 but a bit more cautiously, starting at around 90% full at your indicated seating depth.

I'm ignoring H-110 because it's spooky, finicky, and IME unless you push it over 30K psi forget consistency.

HTH. Mull this over and I'll run more detailed workups of what powders you want to start actually trying.

 

[Ian]

One more thing, and don't laugh....I was thinking about this some more in the shower and had to go back and give good old Alliant Unique a run through. It looks like it will get you where you want to be even though it wasn't on your powder list.

Our favorite load of 8.0 grains for the usual SAA pressure/255-grain-bullet shows "only" 20,090 PSI but also indicates 1021 fps from a 16" bbl with your data and the Lee 340 @353.1 grains, and is 100% consumed in under 3" of bullet travel. That should work just dandy and not be too terribly hard on your brass in strong guns, and of course you could reduce that some still. You DO have a stockpile of Unique, don't you?

 

[RBHarter]

Just an 8# ......and 5-6 # left of the 1968 12# keg....... And another partial 8# .....