Calling Bruce! Help with developing BP patch lube.

Ian

Ian

Notorious member
Ok, heres the deal. I want to invent a water-soluble round ball patch lube for muzzle loaders. It needs to be not messy (not a grease), and needs to actually lubricate the bore a little (like thin oil), not make tar in the bore, and be something that can be used to pre-treat pre-cut patches or strips of patch cloth and not evaporate. Water or spit can be added if necessary or to a patch clean the barrel as needed when shooting.

I don't want water-soluble cutting oils because there's a better option: GLYCOLS.

Question is which glycols. Aqua based cutting fluids are sometimes made from propylene glycol base, alcohol, anti rust, and anti-oxidant additives and pH modifiers.

I want something better, like WATER SOLUBLE PAG OIL.

PAGs don't burn, don't sludge, they lubricate well, have incredibly high viscosity indexes, tend to act like solvents, mix with water, don't smoke when hot and a bunch of other good stuff.

But to prevent evaporation loss of the oil itself, anti-oxidants need to be added. Anti rust additives would be nice, and maybe some detergents and dispersants...maybe. Problem is knowing what stuff to put in the water-soluble PAG base and how much to round it out as a patch lube, and can we focus on keeping toxicity down?

What would be great is a brand and product name of a PAG cutting/tapping fluid intended to be used straight or diluted no more than say 100% with water. Such a product would already have the additives needed and could be used as-is if it only existed. Does it exist?

I'm going to dive into my fancy oil stash and run a couple of different straight PAGs this weekend to prove the concept and if it works like I think it will I'm gonna be on the warpath again to develop a finished formula.
 
M

Mainiac

Well-Known Member
When i was doing alot of flintlock shooting,there was a method called the shultz method.
Ballisol and water mix 1/8 ratio,i think,,
Soak patch material,let dry,roll up and store air tight,,cut at muzzle.
Extremely accurate,but i got away from it,once i tried the lehigh valley lube.

The lehigh is based on tall oil(biproduct of softwood pulping process,,,magic stuff.
 
J

JustJim

Well-Known Member
Some further info that might be useful:

You want a lube that softens fouling and loads (relatively) easily, but not too slick. Oils with a history of working well in this application (e.g., sperm whale oil, jojoba oil, neatsfoot oil, olive oil) tend to be "slick" but not "too slick". Oils that seem to work best still require some force in seating, and be a bit "sticky" in loading. Mink oil is a popular lube, but some find it a bit too slick.

One lube that was popular for a while consisted of 45% petrolatum, about 50% water, with the remainder being cetyl alcohol, with a bit of dye and perfume (wintergreen oil IIRC). It worked well in low humidity as the cetyl alcohol emulsified the water in the petrolatum; notsogood in cold weather.

Someone was selling a tallow amine soap for a while (I seem to recall that one was some kind of industrial lube). It worked OK. Some folks in areas of higher humidity really liked it. The seller was bought out and it was replaced with something else under the same label.

Lubes in current use include a 50/50 mix of Murphy's oil soap and water, straight Simple Green (or cut with water up to about 50%), and winter formula windshield wiper fluid, and various blends of water-soluable cutting oils and water.

Fifteen or 20 years ago, I did some experiments loading with the butt of the rifle on a scale. As I recall, with RH at ~40%, if I blew down the muzzle after firing (traditional practice but verboten under NMLRA rules), the amount of force to drive the ball down the barrel was ~50% of the force vs. not blowing. Velocities were also more consistent, but probably not a statistically-significant amount. (My hypothesis was that the fouling was kept soft by the moisture in the air blown down the barrel. I don't recall testing it further, I just stopped attending shoots held under NMLRA rules.) If the lube can somehow duplicate this, it would be a significant tool.

I've tried various BPCR lubes (mostly saponified natural oils or greases, tallow, etc) in ML but had little luck.
 
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Ian

Ian

Notorious member
The Shultz method is what I want to use, but I tried it and ballistol sucks. Had tonuse a range rod and a chunk of 2x4 to get the ball down the barrel. Also have to clean out the dry crust after every shot, and had red rust come out when cleaning after walking 150' to the front porch where I keep my garden hose and cleaning tools. At least it's water soluble. Part of the philosophy with his method is creating enough sticktion when the the ball is seated to get a good and consistent powder burn....that friction thing again. I know it's important.

Why use soaps and detergents to force oils to mix with water when an inherently water-soluble lubricant already exists? No ash, calcium compounds, silicates, phosphates, etc to foul the works if using PAG oil. I have bear grease (squeezed it out of his toe pads myself, and he was a griz!), but the whole point is to get away from fats and traditional oils.

Tall oil is supposed to be good stuff but needs to be saponified at a precise ratio of metal salt (sodium hydroxide is commonly used and is inherently water-soluble) so the pH is right and no leftover corrosive base or acidic oil to etch the bore. Again, trying to get away from soaps because PAG and other glycols simply don't need it to wash away with straight water.

I have great luck with liquid lubes like Hoppe's #9+ both straight and mixed with hand lotion, I'm sure the Methanol WW fluid is great for the range or if I felt like keeping a little squirt bottle of it in the bag and lubing each patch with it, but might as well just use spit for woods walks.

I think PAG oil is the answer to all the patch lube problems and would be very versatile if it were formulated for open air use. Pure PAGs used in AC systems don't need anti-oxidant or anti corrosion additives because they operate in a dry, oxygen-free environment. Good base oil though, Will work fine for testing.
 
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fiver

fiver

Well-Known Member
a few years back i could have sent you some propylyne glycol, stuffs like 150$ a gallon now.
it won't be super common down where you are either, so you won't be able to just swing by a parking garage and help yourself to a sample.
 
Ian

Ian

Notorious member
And the ethylene stuff that's in the usual antifreeze is toxic AF when the mist/vapor is inhaled. Antifreeze is what got me going down this road, it's slippery, mixes with water (duh) and has a glacial evaporation rate (prolly additives like amines to reduce volatility). Propylene glycol would be a better choice....but there's still the alkylene stuff I wanna try.
 
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Ian

Ian

Notorious member
Went digging some more in my goodie stash, found some Ucon OSP-32 but alas, it's that newfangled oil-soluble PAG. Good news is the PAG-46 AC compressor oil I mixed 50/50 with water last night had zero separation and didn't even foam or milk up. Too bad it has flourescent dye in it, I'll have to pick up some clear oil from the parts house this week. Might get ISO 46 and 100 to see which works best.
 
RicinYakima

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Ian, I'm following closely! I shoot about 50 rounds a year from the flinter, but my lube (olive oil and lamb fat) turns rancid every year and I have to throw it away. Would like to find something for patches I could save from year to year and spit on to make work. Our issue here is humidity is between 10% and 25% all year long. Ric
 
3

300BLK

Well-Known Member
I will be following just to see where this leads. For hunting, I use mink oil because it doesn't freeze, doesn't contaminate the powder, and protects the bore before and after shooting. I've used the Lehigh/Shenanadoah Valley lubes at the range, but not for hunting when my rifle may be loaded for extended periods of time. As for vegetable oils, I prefer avocado oil over olive oil. Jojoba oil is actually a wax. Castor oil is a humectant, so will attract moisture.

For shooting extended strings of shots in BPCRS I used a combination of beeswax, lanolin, and either Mobil 1 full sunthetic or Dexron ATF combined with blowtube between shots. The Dexron ATF version seemed to need less breaths, so apparently was holding moisture better.
 
fiver

fiver

Well-Known Member
propylene glycol is used as antifreeze in fire sprinkler systems.
i didn't mean [chuckle] from radiators.
it however is also used as a binding agent in stuff like candy bars and other foods so isn't deadly.
it's also sweet, i used to know a guy that would judge the percentage as he mixed in the water by tasting it.
 
Maven

Maven

Well-Known Member
All, I too have tried Dutch Schoultz's WSO/dry patch method and found it largely a waste of time and great for fouling bbl's. Eventually I went and stayed with other WSO's and patches wetted with them and have had "0" problems with rust and fouling build-up. Indeed, one lubricant uses winter grade windshield washer fluid and olive oil and yields the same result. Several years ago someone on a ML forum suggested using Prestone antifreeze for a patch lube because of its rust inhibiting qualities, but that seemed to have gone nowhere. I wish you success in your endeavor Ian, but it seems to me that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. (No disrespect intended.)
 
Ian

Ian

Notorious member
Maven said:
I wish you success in your endeavor Ian, but it seems to me that you're trying to reinvent the wheel. (No disrespect intended.)
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I'm not reinventing the wheel, I'm trying to solve a problem which has existed for centuries simply by applying modern materials science. While I don't have nearly as much experience as many of you, I'm not new to this and the shortcomings of every recipe and method I've come across are obvious.

Everyone wants to add "I use this" or I use that" and NONE of the thousands of patch lube recipes I have come across solve the fundamental problems of temperature, humidity, application, and storage.

Spit patch for the range and bear grease for hunting, or a water-soluble oil in some capacity are the universal solutions, anything else is a variant of those three. Any aqueous fluid other than spit is going to need a container and to be applied to the patch just before loading and if it includes an oil for lasting lubrication it will need an emulsifier. These things add complexity. I also think it is categorically stupid to try to get salt water and cold fat or wax to mix, and haven't seen a compelling reason to stick with any number of the recipes which are based on those substances.

What if there was something better? I am the one who has asked that question and I believe there is an answer. I'm looking at polyglycol and water-soluble PAG oils which can be pre-applied quite evenly to patches or strips of patch cloth and enhanced with spit or plain water if/as required, on the spot. No mess, no fuss, no problem in any temperature or humidity, easy water wipe out, store barrel oiled with same product used to lubricate patches.
 
bruce381

bruce381

Active Member
Ian said:
Ok, heres the deal. I want to invent a water-soluble round ball patch lube for muzzle loaders. It needs to be not messy (not a grease), and needs to actually lubricate the bore a little (like thin oil), not make tar in the bore, and be something that can be used to pre-treat pre-cut patches or strips of patch cloth and not evaporate. Water or spit can be added if necessary or to a patch clean the barrel as needed when shooting.

I don't want water-soluble cutting oils because there's a better option: GLYCOLS.

Question is which glycols. Aqua based cutting fluids are sometimes made from propylene glycol base, alcohol, anti rust, and anti-oxidant additives and pH modifiers.

I want something better, like WATER SOLUBLE PAG OIL.

PAGs don't burn, don't sludge, they lubricate well, have incredibly high viscosity indexes, tend to act like solvents, mix with water, don't smoke when hot and a bunch of other good stuff.

But to prevent evaporation loss of the oil itself, anti-oxidants need to be added. Anti rust additives would be nice, and maybe some detergents and dispersants...maybe. Problem is knowing what stuff to put in the water-soluble PAG base and how much to round it out as a patch lube, and can we focus on keeping toxicity down?

What would be great is a brand and product name of a PAG cutting/tapping fluid intended to be used straight or diluted no more than say 100% with water. Such a product would already have the additives needed and could be used as-is if it only existed. Does it exist?

I'm going to dive into my fancy oil stash and run a couple of different straight PAGs this weekend to prove the concept and if it works like I think it will I'm gonna be on the warpath again to develop a finished formula.
Click to expand...
start with RCBS case lube 2 then let me know how it works.
 
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Snakeoil

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
What about castor oil? A popular BPCR lube here is 50/50 beewax and castor oil.

I did a quick search and literally stumbled upon this. It kinda sounds like it is exactly what you are looking for. Used in cosmetics.

PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil
Okay
Used for conditioning, thickener, and to keep product from separating into oil and water components. This is made from Castor oil that's been thickened by hydrogenation, then processed with polyethylene glycol.

This is an off-white solid that's water soluble in warm water, considered to be safe and mild in cosmetics. The main difference between PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil and PEG-40 Castor Oil is that the Hydrogenated Castor Oil is more solid at room temperature, and it has less of a "Castor" scent. [Hunting (Conditioning) pg 318].
See also: PEG Hydrogenation Castor oil PEG-40 Castor oil

Here is the website where I found it.

PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil

www.tightlycurly.com www.tightlycurly.com
 
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