First go with the 300 BLK

[Ian]

Ian and Josh, how different is the ACE bullet from this PB?

http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1067.0.html

I'm going to say "direct copy". I don't know who "OvertonAR" is, but if he's not Josh there might be some 'splainin' that needs doing.

Anyway, the ACE mould I got was I think supposed to be a fat one (.314") and with the alloy I stated above they come out almost that on the bands. I just size them down in a push-through. The nose casts exactly what the drawing says with my alloy. Al's .30-caliber moulds have a tendency to run a little bit fat in my experience, up to .002" larger than drawing with 50/50 alloy and no added tin. .003" fatter is more like it with WW +2% tin. Maybe the WW here in Texas are bigger like everything else, I dunno. BUT, I'd caution that if that mould casts even a little bit fat you're liable to have chambering issues right where the drawing is marked ".301" on the nose. Really, it ought to be .300" right there and hope to cast around .2995" with 50/50 or softer. I know the NOE 247 was a jam-o-matic in several different chambers that I've seen myself, one of which I think had been re-reamed with a "correction to SAAMI" reamer that was made for upgrading the Whisper to BLK. Guess somebody is going to have to buy an NOE mould and see how it does?

 

[300BLK]

I'm going to say "direct copy". I don't know who "OvertonAR" is, but if he's not Josh there might be some 'splainin' that needs doing.

Anyway, the ACE mould I got was I think supposed to be a fat one (.314") and with the alloy I stated above they come out almost that on the bands. I just size them down in a push-through. The nose casts exactly what the drawing says with my alloy. Al's .30-caliber moulds have a tendency to run a little bit fat in my experience, up to .002" larger than drawing with 50/50 alloy and no added tin. .003" fatter is more like it with WW +2% tin. Maybe the WW here in Texas are bigger like everything else, I dunno. BUT, I'd caution that if that mould casts even a little bit fat you're liable to have chambering issues right where the drawing is marked ".301" on the nose. Really, it ought to be .300" right there and hope to cast around .2995" with 50/50 or softer. I know the NOE 247 was a jam-o-matic in several different chambers that I've seen myself, one of which I think had been re-reamed with a "correction to SAAMI" reamer that was made for upgrading the Whisper to BLK. Guess somebody is going to have to buy an NOE mould and see how it does?

I don't know why "reply" has now become "quote", but it appears to be the case. My own NOEs typically cast .001" over drawing, but I think that I have or had one that was .002" over(30XCB), and my mix was tested at 96-2-2. Regardless, we cast at different temperatures, bottom pour vs ladle vs pressure cast, so there will be some differences. If Brad's chamber is as tight as I recall he indicated, he might want to forget that idea; both Mountain Molds and Accurate Molds have a .180" minimum meplat, so no help there. Otherwise, a minor chamber neck/throat reaming might be an idea.

 

[Brad]

I may need to dive a soft lead self into the throat and take some measurements.
On the other hand, I have a couple moulds that are giving results that I think can be improved upon.

 

[fiver]

airc the NOE is a slightly modified LEE bullet with regular lube grooves and a full plain base rather than the tapered base lee done.
I dunno what the taper is supposed to do on something moving 1,000 fps or less but it does take up a little less room in the case and makes the bullet longer.

I would think the slightly shorter and stronger plain base types would be a better fit in an 8 twist rifle.
a 200 ish grain plain base/gas check combo mold [like 2&2] would [IMO] be the best option of them all.

Oh and Ian no it's not outside threaded.
it's just a brake/ breeching tool [not really needed] but it's a little more weight for the rifle.
I'm trying to get some weight on this little AAC, it's kinda hard to get steady shooting off hand [and the bench]
I'm thinking of making a weight for the butt-stock, and the fore-arm parts of the rifle, to balance things a little better and add some weight to the rifle over-all.

I can see that they intended this rifle to be carried as a secondary tool and only used when needed [the stock is even short for using with a vest] but that isn't what I'm using it for.
I need to wring this little guy out at distances past 100yds too, I think it's shooting those little 110gr bullets flatter than the velocity would indicate.

 

[Ian]

Nah, ACE/Josh is who gathered feedback on the Lee and fixed what guys hated about it. All NOE did was change the copyright on the ACE drawing. No matter, ACE is bye-bye and NOE can get it done for people, and it is a damn good design although I kinda wish the front groove was a crimp-type like the NOE 247.

I agree a 200-grainer would be great, might still cycle a pistol-length AR action too even subsonic. I took a fourteenth gamble since 2007 and bought a Lyman 311299 new.....OMG it's the worst Lyman mould I've bought yet. .295x.298 on the nose and .305x.308 on the bands with 2 parts COWW 1part SOWW 1part pure (my SOWW have a lot of tin). .003" out of round. I had it boxed to send back but decided to keep it and peen the alignment holes/grind pins to make it cast round and use it for paper-patching with pure lead. Unbelieveable. If it cast like it should and had just a hint of taper to the nose the 311299 would be an absolutely perfecto fit in the BLK crimped in the top groove with the base flush with the neck/shoulder. I looked at NOE's 311299 and just get skeered of that long, parallel .301" nose that will probably cast a titch on the large side and not chamber in an automatic.

 

[300BLK]

NOE's 311299 is a thing of beauty. Mine drops bullets .001" or less over the drawing. I also have the Saeco #301 and a good 311644 that will all cycle through my 300 carbines. Yours sounded to be a bit tight, so won't say any but the 311644 would work in yours. The NOE 311331's nose is too long and fat for all but one of my '06s. Expect the NOE 311290 to be even worse.

 

[Elkins45]

My new Lyman 311299 was made in the mid-90's, but spent almost 20 years sitting on a crowded, dirty shelf in a gun/junk/collectable/junk/knife/junk store in Louisville. The guy behind the counter let me have it for $35 or so. It is a thing of beauty.

My NOE 311299 is an RG4. I have to seat them pretty darned deep for them to chamber in my AR. I bought it based on how well my Lyman shoots, but it's not an exact copy. A tiny bit of difference in the nose makes a whole heap of difference in maximum OAL when you have a tight throat.

My 98 Mauser with the Israeli 308 barrel loves it. No two rifles are the same.

 

[Brad]

Ok, got the NOE 230 plain base mould in. Sized .310 it should work well.
Khornet had a bunch of 4227 he wasn't using, didn't do what he hoped, so,he gave it to me. Looks like 10 gr should be a workable load with that bullet. I will likely start at 9.5 and go up from there.
I have lots of 1680 too I will try but need some load help. Any idea where I want to start with 1680?

 

[Ian]

I just checked a target and have 10.2 grains AA1680 at 1006 average FPS for five shots with the ACE bullet (identical drawing). That's from a 16" barrel AR with carbine gas system.

I'd stay subsonic if I were you, there isn't much headroom to go supersonic (might get to 1300 fps before pressure limits out) and you might run into some transonic accuracy buffeting inside of 100 yards. No need to go supersonic, really, unless you just want to.

In general, look at Nosler's on-line loading data for subsonic 300 blk with the j-220 bullets and subtract 1.5 to 2 grains of powder from their data to get about the same velocities with your 230-ish cast bullets.

 

[Brad]

I plan to stay subsonic with these. A good 100 yd plinking load is the goal. Less noise will be a plus. They ought to be great for steel plate shooting.

I will look at the Nosler site and go from there. Thanks Ian.

 

[freebullet]

Can't wait to see your results.

Ya might try mag primers with low charges of imr4227. It don't burn clean Fer me until it reaches mid to upper end charges. With small charges a mag primer helped some.

 

[Ian]

Same might go for 1680, filthy and erratic stuff with the heavy cast subsonics.

 

[fiver]

I shot about 22 grs of 1680 in the 0-6 but that was closer to 1900 fps than sub sonic.
I would be more inclined to look at speeding the powder up, except you need gas volume to make things work.
so your caught up in the middle here.
too fast and you get a clean burn but not enough gas volume to stroke the rifle, too slow and the rifle works but you got a pile of unburnt powder gumming up the works.

maybe a little filler?
I know sounds silly in this little tiny case right.
but even here we still have to follow the rules and a medium slow powder for the case is a medium slow powder for the case.

 

[Josh]

I shot about 22 grs of 1680 in the 0-6 but that was closer to 1900 fps than sub sonic.
I would be more inclined to look at speeding the powder up, except you need gas volume to make things work.
so your caught up in the middle here.
too fast and you get a clean burn but not enough gas volume to stroke the rifle, too slow and the rifle works but you got a pile of unburnt powder gumming up the works.

maybe a little filler?
I know sounds silly in this little tiny case right.
but even here we still have to follow the rules and a medium slow powder for the case is a medium slow powder for the case.

This is exactly why my only 300 BLK is a bolt gun, no need to use powders outside their parameters to run the rifle. If I went with a 300 BLK semi it would be supers only.

 

[Ian]

This is exactly why my only 300 BLK is a bolt gun, no need to use powders outside their parameters to run the rifle. If I went with a 300 BLK semi it would be supers only.

Good point.

However, I still like shooting heavy subs through my suppressed AR. I also have one of those stocks with the fun switch on it.

 

[Brad]

I will start with 4227. A max charge is running 30K psi or more so powder should burn well enough to be clean. Even then it is just barely capable of making supersonic.

A bolt gun wouldn't be bad but then I would want a heavier barrel for bench shooting. I have a couple of ARs so a new upper just made sense.

Now if Mother Nature would cooperate and melt this snow. Nothing worse to me than chasing brass in snow. No thanks.

 

[freebullet]

The 4227 will cycle the ak(the og 300blk) down to 1300fps. I don't remember the exact charge. Iirc it was around 12-13gr. I was surprised it cycled as low as it did.

Going to a faster powder would be my inclination too. If it's a carbine or pistol length gas system getting it to cycle with fast powder is much easier.

 

[Ian]

He's got a pistol system with a humongous gas port, IIRC it's .130" which is larger than the gas tube ID. I have the same upper on one of mine and changed the gas block to an adjustable one. MUCH easier to get happy cycling with the pistol system than the carbine one, but the carbine one runs cleaner.

 

[300BLK]

Moving backwards from 1680 to 4227, the next quicker that might work is 2400, and then Blue Dot. With carbine length gas you might need to go light on the buffer and spring to make things work if you have the heavier BCG, or might need the lightweight BCG.

 

[Brad]

I cast up over 200 today. Go em sized to .3095, will heat treat later. The nose does run far but if seated with just a little of the front band exposed it doesn't jam in to the lands. This is fine as it also means that front band is just in contact with the throat and the rounds are close to max magazine length.
I will try to get some photos tonight.

First loads will be 9.5 -10 gr of 4227. Might need to wait a bit to be able to shoot outdoors, weather isn't nice right now.