.22lr vs Pellet Lead

[burbank.jung]

I own some Mihec HP molds and want to cast them to expand well. The media I'll use will probably be newspaper or jugs of water. I also don't want to buy tin to make it a 2% alloy unless it's necessary.

I have a small quantity of mostly .22lr lead and another bag of Air Rifle (pellet) lead. I've been told online that the .22lr lead is most likely 2-3% antinomy. I assume the bhn will be lower (softer lead alloy) than range scrap. Plus, I am assuming the alloy will be more consistent. Does anyone of a general idea of what the pellet lead will be? I plan to melt these down into separate batches later, cast them, and test but thought I'd ask out of curiosity.

 

[Spindrift]

Don't know the contents of pellet alloy, sorry.
Maybe you can find some useful info here:

Subsonic expansion testing

Lately, I have been entertaining myself with a little expansion testing with subsonic loads, using HP bullets. I don’t really have any need for such loads; just some clean, innocent fun. The sensible thing would probably be to start with a suitable alloy, like a binary lead/tin alloy. But my...

artfulbullet.com

The "range scrap" alloy I'm referring to in the thread, is mainly RWS .22lr bullets, with some pellets thrown in.

 

[35 shooter]

I know crosman pellets are said to have a good bit of antimony in them… they’re certainly harder than jsb, daisy, etc.
The only hardness testing I’ve seen done on pellets was on the GTA site using pencils to test with.
Crosman and gamo pellets came out at 7 to 9 bhn if I remember right, most other brands were pretty much 6 to 7 bhn I believe… it’s been awhile since I read that.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I cannot speak to pellet alloy content either. But RimFire lead is something I know well as its one of my sources for alloy. That alloy runs just under 12 BHN. I have used it straight and powder coated to nearly 2000 fps with zero bullet fouling. (And good accuracy)

CW

 

[burbank.jung]

Have you always had to add to ensure proper mushrooming of your hollow points using .22lr?

 

[CZ93X62]

Interesting info. I assume (but don't actually know) that both airgun pellets and 22 LR bullets are swaged, so CW's info on 22 LR bullets being BHn 12 is a bit surprising.

Here in Gavin's Gulag hunters are required to use unleaded projectiles to take game and varmints. This makes as much sense as electric cars in rural Nevada, but very little that occurs on the West Coast/9th Circuit makes much sense anyway. Lead airgun pellets remain permissible to hunt critters with, unless it's a migratory bird--airguns aren't kosher for doves & waterfowl. GMBTA, I just work here.

 

[richhodg66]

If you ask me, I believe you are over thinking this. .22 LR hollow point ammo most definitely upsets and expands at .22 LR velocities, why wouldn't it with your loads?

May want to reconsider the tin, a little goes a long way, thrift shop pewter is cheap and easily available, makes alloys more malleable and less likey to fracture on impact if the tin and antimony are close to a balance. It also makes casting good bullets a lot easier, and I've always found HPs to be a PITA to cast, but I've never done it with an MP mold so that that for what it's worth.

 

[Tomme boy]

The lead with just antimony in will flow just fine in a HP. Ever seen how a foster shotgun slug flattens out? That has 3-5% antimony only in it. When you add anything else is when it really gets hard.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

This RF alloy with tin has worked well @ 1200 fps (pistol sized hp)

 

[fiver]

the problem comes when you cast a swaged product.
the alloy may seem soft when used as intended, but re-cycling the little crystals inside changes their broken structure into a chain again.
try casting those dead soft Hornady swaged & knurled target type bullets with a little tin thrown in and you'll quickly find out what terracorp magnum alloy is all about.

now 22 alloy will usually open up at 22lr. velocities [or not depending on the hole and speed]
if your looking at a rifle at 1800 fps. a cup point will generally be enough to upset the nose.
if your going hand gun [shrug] they'll open depending on the opening you put on them, you'll probably [most likely] shear some of the nose off with a higher antimony alloy at higher speeds.... especially if you have tin in the alloy.
i can almost guarantee you'll see some wrinkling behind the opening and recessing area of the bullet.
that's the lead sliding over the broken down antimony crystals within the alloy.

the key to good success is to match the alloy with the speed.
IE 750 fps go 30-1 and use a gas check.

 

[RBHarter]

Don't forget the copper was that glombs onto any and all tin available .

 

[L Ross]

the problem comes when you cast a swaged product.
the alloy may seem soft when used as intended, but re-cycling the little crystals inside changes their broken structure into a chain again.
try casting those dead soft Hornady swaged & knurled target type bullets with a little tin thrown in and you'll quickly find out what terracorp magnum alloy is all about.

now 22 alloy will usually open up at 22lr. velocities [or not depending on the hole and speed]
if your looking at a rifle at 1800 fps. a cup point will generally be enough to upset the nose.
if your going hand gun [shrug] they'll open depending on the opening you put on them, you'll probably [most likely] shear some of the nose off with a higher antimony alloy at higher speeds.... especially if you have tin in the alloy.
i can almost guarantee you'll see some wrinkling behind the opening and recessing area of the bullet.
that's the lead sliding over the broken down antimony crystals within the alloy.

the key to good success is to match the alloy with the speed.
IE 750 fps go 30-1 and use a gas check.

See there, that makes perfect sense. If we swaged .22 alloy into centerfire bullets with a hollow point and shot them a .22 Hi-Vel velocities they'd expand just like .22 Hi-Vel HP ammo, but we melt them and change everything.

Hollow points look cool and intimidating, and may even be useful in a handgun, but the posterior pain of creating them, and the some times they don't expand, some times they expand too much, and some times Goldie Locks gets lucky just leaves me uninterested.

 

[CZ93X62]

See there, that makes perfect sense. If we swaged .22 alloy into centerfire bullets with a hollow point and shot them a .22 Hi-Vel velocities they'd expand just like .22 Hi-Vel HP ammo, but we melt them and change everything.

Hollow points look cool and intimidating, and may even be useful in a handgun, but the posterior pain of creating them, and the some times they don't expand, some times they expand too much, and some times Goldie Locks gets lucky just leaves me uninterested.

I feel the same way as far as castings are concerned. Back in The Dark Ages in Cartelifornia--when lead could be used to hunt with--I cast up Bruce B Soft Points in my hunting calibers.

 

[fiver]

those work good too.

there is a dude on U-tube called Elvis ammo.
i worked with another cast boolits member to make some 30-1 alloy bullets that specifically work in his short barreled 38 special revolver, and speeds that are a bit higher from a 4" model with 357 cases.
the speed window is airc @700 -950 fps.
anyhow.
he hollow pointed them. [cast as H-Points]
then i explained the benefit of pre processing the nose portion and filling the cavity with something [like cheap 2 dollar a tube house caulk]
he followed my directions and sent some samples off to Elvis to have them tested in ballistic gel on camera.
[right,, third party blind testing]

if you care to see what alloy and velocity matching are capable of look him up.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Hollow points look cool and intimidating, and may even be useful in a handgun, but the posterior pain of creating them, and the some times they don't expand, some times they expand too much, and some times Goldie Locks gets lucky just leaves me uninterested.

/\ Agreed /\

There seems to be some obsession with bullet expansion. I understand the desire to improve the terminal performance of a projectile, it is sort of a force multiplier concept. And a hollowpoint is one method to achieve that expansion. But bullet expansion should never be the “make or break” factor of terminal performance; it should be the icing on the cake.

A soft flat point or a soft wide round point may be as good of a path to effective terminal performance as a hollowpoint.

Handguns present a more challenging problem if we are seeking reliable expansion. And again, I don’t think expansion should be the primary goal here.

At handgun velocities, and dealing with potential barriers, expansion can be difficult to reliably achieve, and it can even be counter-productive (it can limit penetration or reduce the mass of the projectile if it breaks apart).

Gun rags and cartridge manufacturers love to display rows upon rows of perfectly mushroomed bullets that killed a block of gelatin. In the real world the final configuration of the projectile has little, if any, bearing on the outcome.

 

[burbank.jung]

When casting bullets, I think that hollow points are important for those that want to replicate a bullet for SD against humans. You can buy Gold Dots or XTP bullets but casters are making their own for fun to replicate the expansion and potentional usefulness of them. If I were to cast for hunting purposes, the soft flat nose bullets are better. I want to add that the XTP is a hollow point but does not expand well in gel tests as good as the Gold Dot. I'm guessing that the XTP would work better for hunting animals with a denser body cavity and thicker hide than humans. My guess.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

There are a LOT of variables when it comes to creating a handgun bullet that reliably expands. In fact, so many variables that I think it is difficult for handloaders to replicate anything other than performance in bare gelatin.

If your goal is to match the performance in gelatin, you can probably get pretty close with the tools available to handloaders (alloys, bullet profile, type of HP cavity, and a given velocity from a given gun).

This is one area where jacketed bullets (I know that’s blasphemy on this forum) may have an advantage. A jacketed hollowpoint, verses a lead bullet, has a better chance of defeating barriers (heavy clothing, glass, etc.) and still performing well.

Again, expansion is only the icing on the cake. Ultimately, a handloader may be just as well served by a soft lead flat point as with a lead hollowpoint that needs a precise hardness, a specific HP cavity size and velocity to function.

 

[Rick H]

I'm guessing that the XTP would work better for hunting animals with a denser body cavity and thicker hide than humans.

My experience with the 240 gr. XTP out of a .44M rifle was disappointing. The XTP at a velocity above 1750 fps from my 22" barreled CVA Scout absolutely exploded and came apart on a rib just behind the shoulder on a medium size whitetail doe. It shed the jacket and grenaded. It killed her but after this I went to a Speer 240 gr. Hot Core soft point. I don't need that kind of expansion in a hunting bullet.

 

[richhodg66]

My experience with the 240 gr. XTP out of a .44M rifle was disappointing. The XTP at a velocity above 1750 fps from my 22" barreled CVA Scout absolutely exploded and came apart on a rib just behind the shoulder on a medium size whitetail doe. It shed the jacket and grenaded. It killed her but after this I went to a Speer 240 gr. Hot Core soft point. I don't need that kind of expansion in a hunting bullet.

This was my exact experience with one, actually my son who was about 12 at the time. SHot in front of 70 grains of Triple Seven in a muzzle loading sabot. Ruined one shoulder and most of the other, found jacket fragments throughout and the deer still ran farther than nearly all of mine have including archery kills. First and last time using one of those.

 

[fiver]

guessing that the XTP would work better for hunting animals with a denser body cavity and thicker hide than humans. My guess.

ish.
if you impact at the correct velocity.

i used the XTP in my 45 colt lever rifle for the first few years i lived here in Idaho.
there was some pass throughs with no expansion, more than i'd like to admit, but they still killed the animal.
so as i went along i was overtaken by my cheapness [<2 cents versus a quarter back then] and figured holes in the right place seem to do the job just as good as a slightly bigger hole in the right place.
so why not just go to the same bullet i use to kill rocks and cans and such, it worked on bunnies and other stuff so why not?
i can make a jillion of them and shoot to my hearts content for about 5-6 cents a shot [stupid 2.5-3 cent each primers]