Extruded Powder Prices
- Thread starter TXTad
- Start date
The process for manufacturing stick powders is slightly indeterminate, much testing is done for each batch to determine the burning rate and energy content. IMR powders have the same energy content per gram, the burning rate is determined by physical attributes. The testing shows the burning rate and few lots make the standard for canister powders. Canister powder within these strict parameters are the lots sold to reloaders. The non-canister powders are sold to the ammunition manufacturers with the burning rate data for commercial and military ammunition.
Ball powders lots are run, energy and burning rate determined, analysis of what is needed to bring within specifications, deterrent coatings added, tested again for confirmation, and sold.
Ball powders lots are run, energy and burning rate determined, analysis of what is needed to bring within specifications, deterrent coatings added, tested again for confirmation, and sold.
L Ross
Well-Known Member
Probably to my detriment I never liked ball powders. I read too many old reloading books and articles, watched my Uncle Bub reload when I was just a little kid. I was perfectly happy with IMR and Hercules powders. I actually enjoy the crunch of my Redding powder measure gnawing its was through a column of 4831 or 4350.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
I far prefer to use ball/spherical powders whenever possible. I choose calibers of handguns and rifles based on this preference.
I do use stick powders to some degree, though they do not get along with my RCBS powder measures very well. One area I need info on is the slow-burning rifle fuels in ball/spherical form. The 4350s and 4831s are proven and known, and given that WC-860 was used in the 50 BMG and does well in the 6.5 x 55 Swede I assume there are equivalent ball forms at those slightly faster (4350/4831) burning rates--I just don't know what they are. Bottom line--scaling every powder charge and trickling them up for the 6.5 x 55 is a labor- and time-intensive PITA.
School me up some--TIA!
I do use stick powders to some degree, though they do not get along with my RCBS powder measures very well. One area I need info on is the slow-burning rifle fuels in ball/spherical form. The 4350s and 4831s are proven and known, and given that WC-860 was used in the 50 BMG and does well in the 6.5 x 55 Swede I assume there are equivalent ball forms at those slightly faster (4350/4831) burning rates--I just don't know what they are. Bottom line--scaling every powder charge and trickling them up for the 6.5 x 55 is a labor- and time-intensive PITA.
School me up some--TIA!
fiver
Well-Known Member
there's a few.
Accurate are the ones i use.
i really like their AA-2230 [i can't quite pin down it's burn speed though]
i use it in the 25-20, the 30-30, my 375 win, and with jacketed bullets in the 223 on my dillon.
AA-2700 is slightly faster than 4350, but i use it in the 22-250/220swift, 7.7 jap and 300 savage.
i'd use it more but it's hard to get in 8lb. jugs round here.
their 4350 is a stick powder.
the 3100 they used to make was the equivalent of 4831,, and i suspect a re-hash of the old H-450.
the 450 i've used tends to pack off in the case and burn hotter than called for ruining accuracy.
they also make 8700 which is too slow for stuff like the 270 and 25-06,, but it does work well with cast bullets in the larger cases like the 0-6, and is the boss in the weatherby sized cases.
i know winchester makes stuff that basically covers these up in burn speed 748 good with a case full, but not reduced, 760/780 etc. and stuff like Norma's MRP is useful, but ones i haven't played with.
H-414 is also a ball powder, it works in lot's of stuff like the 308 and 7X57 at medium up to the higher speeds... i ain't tried reducing it though.
Accurate are the ones i use.
i really like their AA-2230 [i can't quite pin down it's burn speed though]
i use it in the 25-20, the 30-30, my 375 win, and with jacketed bullets in the 223 on my dillon.
AA-2700 is slightly faster than 4350, but i use it in the 22-250/220swift, 7.7 jap and 300 savage.
i'd use it more but it's hard to get in 8lb. jugs round here.
their 4350 is a stick powder.
the 3100 they used to make was the equivalent of 4831,, and i suspect a re-hash of the old H-450.
the 450 i've used tends to pack off in the case and burn hotter than called for ruining accuracy.
they also make 8700 which is too slow for stuff like the 270 and 25-06,, but it does work well with cast bullets in the larger cases like the 0-6, and is the boss in the weatherby sized cases.
i know winchester makes stuff that basically covers these up in burn speed 748 good with a case full, but not reduced, 760/780 etc. and stuff like Norma's MRP is useful, but ones i haven't played with.
H-414 is also a ball powder, it works in lot's of stuff like the 308 and 7X57 at medium up to the higher speeds... i ain't tried reducing it though.
Tomme boy
Well-Known Member
@fiver I used to buy the 2230-c 8lbs a long time ago. I think I went threw at least 8 of them back then. Would be nice to get some that cheap again. I think they were like $65/8lb. Thing I did not like about it though was the lot to lot difference. It was all over the place. I think I had a couple of the data 2200 jugs also. That was some fast powder
Matt_G
Curmudgeon in training
Perhaps Accurate MagPro could be an alternative for you.
As Lamar said above, the old 3100 was there with the 4831's.
Looking around at charts and other data, it appears that MagPro has basically replaced 3100 in Accurate's lineup and it's a ball powder.
It seems to fall between IMR and H4831.
Might even be a touch slower than H4831 depending on the application.
Please note that I have no personal experience with MagPro, and may be talking out my nether region.
TXTad
Active Member
I believe H-335 is a bit faster than 748, and that BLC(2) and 748 are much closer to each other.
TXTad
Active Member
I have two jugs of the DP 2200. I was going to sell them off, but I think with the current state of things, I should just find a way to use it even if it's sub-optimum.
fiver
Well-Known Member
yeah their C-line may have lined up or not from batch to batch and usually was a bit off from the canister grade stuff.
you were all but forced to start off new with each jug and a chronograph, unless you ordered a bunch of it and mixed it all together.
but then again, the reloading companies were getting it in 35gallon fiber drums, and like 8 drums on a pallet, so they could throw down thousands of rounds before having to worry about the next batch.
you were all but forced to start off new with each jug and a chronograph, unless you ordered a bunch of it and mixed it all together.
but then again, the reloading companies were getting it in 35gallon fiber drums, and like 8 drums on a pallet, so they could throw down thousands of rounds before having to worry about the next batch.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
That may be the case in a wider range of calibers than I have used these two in--almost exclusively 223 and 308, with some 30/30 WCF thrown in for fun.
WW-748 and H-335 were almost certainly derived from mil-spec fuels--WC-844 for the 5.56 x 45/223 Rem and WC-846 for the 7.62 x 51/308 Winchester. The two mil-specs are very close to each other, just as '748' and '335' are.
My end goal is to find ball/spherical fuels for j-word full-tilt loadings in 243 and 6.5 x 55 that provide the ballistic and accuracy performance of IMR/H 4350 and 4831, which are both a PITA to run through my powder measures. WW-780/785 might have been an answer, but both are out of print and never have been easy to find.
WC-860 is close in the 6.5 x 55; a full case of that fuel (55.0 grains) gives 2450 FPS to 140 grain j-words and stellar accuracy. This is 1896-level ballistics, and is certainly a capable load. In contrast, 45.5 grains of IMR-4831 gives 2700 FPS to Nosler Partitions, Hornady Interlocks, and Sierra Game Kings of 140 grains; all shoot under 1" at 100 yards in my Ruger 77.
In 243 with 100 grain j-words similar things happen--a full case of WC-860 (48.0 grains) yields 2600-2650 FPS and decent accuracy, while book loads of WW-760 get peaky and give stickier bolt lift than I like past 2750 FPS. IMR-4831 gives 2950-3000 FPS, friendly pressures, and excellent accuracy--and has for 30+ years.
In short, I want a ball-powder equivalent to IMR-4831; I'm not sure that it exists, or ever did. I know that all of this red-coated bullet bit is off-topic, but there are some right knowledgeable folks here, and I don't know where else to look--so I ask for a bit of indulgence here.
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TXTad
Active Member
No doubt different cartridges bring out differences in otherwise similar powders. H-335 is almost definitely WC-844 and goes back to the early days of the M-16. I believe BLC(2) has its roots in Winchester loads for the .303 for the British during WWII and from what I understand it's essentially WC-846 for the .308.
I think you are correct that there is no ball equivalent for 4831. There's actually not much equivalent at all to that. Vihtavuori N160 is not a ball powder, and is not exactly the same, but seems the closest I could find. It is available and not horrifically expensive like some others. A friend just finally found some RL22 at $65 / lb!
Ian
Notorious member
Those three specifically can vary so much between lots that they can actually cross over on burn rate in some chamberings.
Ian
Notorious member
Allen, I always loaded my military Swedish Mausers with the Sierra 160 and H414. Itty-bitty groups to 500 yards.
I didn't know WW780 was out of print, that's too bad because I think it'swhat you're looking for. I used a good bit of it in the Swedes and .270 Win under a pinch of buffer and paper-patched bullets, IIRC it was labeled "780 Supreme" and was marvelous stuff, especially when it has 29" of room to burn. I tried both LeveRevolution and Superformance (spherical ball) in a variety of chamberings with cast bullets only but found them rather inconsistent in those instances.
Hybrid 100V is another good one for medium-capacity barn burners but I hear it is history as well. It was the worst of both worlds being an extruded ball powder, but it had short grains and and made tiny groups when dialed in.
I didn't know WW780 was out of print, that's too bad because I think it'swhat you're looking for. I used a good bit of it in the Swedes and .270 Win under a pinch of buffer and paper-patched bullets, IIRC it was labeled "780 Supreme" and was marvelous stuff, especially when it has 29" of room to burn. I tried both LeveRevolution and Superformance (spherical ball) in a variety of chamberings with cast bullets only but found them rather inconsistent in those instances.
Hybrid 100V is another good one for medium-capacity barn burners but I hear it is history as well. It was the worst of both worlds being an extruded ball powder, but it had short grains and and made tiny groups when dialed in.
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Josh
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you need to look at Winchester StaBALL 6.5 powder. It's a ball powder that's right at the H4350 burn speed.