Is it just me...........?

[Longone]

I got to thinking this morning after posting about my Blackhawk woes about the handguns that I have had to return over the years and have to ask, Is it just me that is having these issues?

I returned a Ruger P89 for accuracy issues and Ruger replaced the gun.
I bought a new 586 S&W nickel 6" 357 and there was a gouge in the rifling in the barrel, S&W replaced the barrel.
Now the same gun has a recall for a primer flow issue, it will go out to S&W on Monday.
New Springfield Armory 1911 TRP 45 ACP, trigger was absolutely horrible. It had more creep than a Vincent Price movie. Springfield replaced the sear and trigger, all better.

I have several handguns that have been great and are just waiting to be worn out, believe me, I'm doing my best!!!!

So is there anyone else that has experiences like mine or am I just circling the drain?

Longone

 

[Brad]

I have been lucky so far. Other than a couple of Ruger revolvers with small throats everything has been acceptable.
Maybe I haven't bought enough guns to increase my chances of a lemon?

And more creep than a Vincent Price movie? That is a bunch of creep. And funny.

 

[RBHarter]

Someone said if you buy enough guns your bound to get a bad one .
I picked up Rem M 14 the rifle was over 60 yo when I got it . That rifle was my first taste of recognized looong gravelly triggers ,talk about creepy .
I shot my Grandfather's 1947 M10 S&W and thought "you know that Security 6 has a pretty good trigger " then I got to shoot a 1917 made in 1918 S&W , want talk about greased glass and clean breaks , that pistol had it going on.

In my 50 yrs I've had maybe 10 of 100 or so brand new guns and I've found that age vs price tag may or may not have anything to do with the quality of the product. Age also doesn't guarantee that all the rough places will be fixed or worn in.

Sounds like you were just that random lucky guy .

I don't know what every work force is like but yesterday I had to build a counting board because the folks working a line can't count to 8 groups ,lines or rows by appearance, of 8 . That just scares the hell outta me since if they make a mistake the stuff their working with would reduce a person to a DNA smudge.
Everything seems to be degrading to a serviceable but unfinished state more and more . It makes me sad to know that there will never be the true craftsmanship that we always had ever again . Everything is just a series parts assembled with a min/max scale and if it fits it ships. 7 for 10 it is a good product . 1 of 10 will be really good and 1 will get rejected and reduced to parts for a do over . About 1of 100 will be really great .

 

[RicinYakima]

In the last 25 years my new guns: two C. Sharps rifles that were perfect except one had too low of front sight; Remington Model 700 Varmint in 308 with the chamber cut crooked to the bore line (on return Remington said it was "within specs"), Savage model 10 in .308 that has been very good; S&W Model 331 Scandium 32 H&R Mag had the barrel shroud come off within the first 100 rounds.

There are good guns being made today, but they cost the same as 100 or 150 years ago; a week's wages before deductions or an ounce of gold.

 

[300BLK]

I've only sent a couple back over the years. The first was a Marlin 1894 44 Mag that you could see the roll stamping on the inside of the barrel. The 2nd was a Ruger Redhawk that appeared to have a crack or void inside the barrel back at the front of the threads. I found that one while trying to lap out the frame thread crush. BOTH of those were rebarreled, no questions asked.

 

[RBHarter]

1965 as a Journeyman pipefitter for uncle my Dad made $3.95/hr and his 57 vintage M12 cost $61 in 72 at $4.78/his brand new M700 bull bbl 25-06 with the 4-12 x 50 set him back $125 . Today a the pipe fitters I know are making north of $27/hr $29.50 at full rate .
Rounded up at gross that's 27 hr , I'd probably dance on a a full bull ,full polished ,white line ,ebony tipped and grip capped , A Carlo walnut , 700 BDL , jeweled bolt ,steel floor plate , adjustable target trigger , steel bridge mounted premium 4-12 x 50 for $850 in the truck headed home . But that's about what the base rifle costs . Add $120 for a Timney, $50 for the mount and $400-800 more for glass . The Model 12 is still close but your getting a 50 + yo shotgun, show me a 870 Wing Master for $375 on the shelf and I would give it a chance .
Based against the grocery cart I'm only making .0065 x what I was making in 1996 in the same job I have today in spite of the numbers having doubled .
In truth guns have never been less expensive or more accurate than they are today . Unfortunately what would have gone back to the smelter 50 yr ago gets blemmed or refitted into an 80% base clearance sale gun . Someone buys sends it back and it gets the QC it should have had to begin with and that 1 has 25 sisters that spill their guts on a bench and are better than the really good 1s. I'd like to have a brand new 45 ACP S&W line gun to shoot s/s with that 1918 vintage 1917 or the the same in a Model 10 .

So sue me I think a Cadillac should be a never feel the road road car not a digital 2 rate sport coupe if I want to drive a leather wrapped line rocket status symbol I'd have bought a BMW . It's probably why I have under $300 in a 98 358 Win work horse and a beautiful 257 Roberts that shoots extremely well that I mostly just show off .

 

[KHornet]

Like Brad, have been fortunate, and I have never had to send one back. Have had
a couple that I really had to work hard with to find what shot the best, but that
was/is part of the challenge.

Paul

 

[9.3X62AL]

I have bought and sold a whole lot of guns during my near-50 years of involvement in this hobby. I have been unbelievably lucky, in terms of avoiding "bummers". Not all have been tackdrivers, but most have been at least decent and only one was "defective"--the BisHawk x 45 Colt with .448"-.449" throats. Even that one shot #454490s OK (kind of a Thompson-esque SWC-GC).

Ric in Yakima's point about price seems largely true. In 1880, a $20 gold piece would purchase a Colt SAA 45 Colt. Today, $20 won't cover half a box of factory ammo for that same revolver, but bring in a genuine $20 gold piece to most gun shops, and they will be most happy to exchange it for a NIB Colt SAA. Intrinsic value vs. voucher coupons.

 

[Ian]

I've only sent a couple back over the years. The first was a Marlin 1894 44 Mag that you could see the roll stamping on the inside of the barrel. The 2nd was a Ruger Redhawk that appeared to have a crack or void inside the barrel back at the front of the threads. I found that one while trying to lap out the frame thread crush. BOTH of those were rebarreled, no questions asked.

I laughed my butt off at the roll stamping comment!

My Ruger NV that I could see the roll stamping on the inside of the barrel too, I guess they thought the bullets need to read the warning label too as they whiz by. Ruger thread choke is historic. I read somewhere, a book about Ruger manufacturing I think, about the "streamlined" process of how some bean counter decided they were to time barrels to frames. Basically about 1/3 of them will be properly matched, 1/3 will be loose, and the final third will have the bejeezus crunched out of the barrel threads. GM did the same thing with their Gen III engines, first year they paid someone to measure pistons and bores and match them for each engine. After that, they figured out that it was cheaper just to throw them together willy-nilly and then deny warranty claims from customers with new vehicles exhibiting loud piston knock from small pistons making it into large bores. The engines would make it out of warranty without coming apart, so no problem as far as GM was concerned even though a lot of them sound like they had one or more spun rod bearings. Ruger's production breakthrough of gang-boring cylinders was anther excellent production expedient....except when one reamer gets chipped or broken and replaced, they don't replace them all at the same time. This is how we can have one large chamber and five small ones, or more likely a full representation of reamer life all within the same cylinder. Ain't it grand?

 

[Winelover]

The very first handgun I purchased was a 6" Royal Blue Python, in the 70's. After, just a few shooting sessions, it went back to Colt for repair. Seems someone forgot to put thread locker on the barrel threads. Barrel was starting to unscrew, itself. Noticed it after I couldn't figure out why it wasn't shooting to POA. Still in my possession and rather trouble free. Did have to replace the V-spring, due to light hammer strikes causing FTF, but that's another fiasco........

That was the first and only time, I had to send a firearm back for warranty repair. My latest acquisition, CA Bulldog, might need a return trip. The recoil shield is becoming indented from the star extractor setback. Minor, right now but I'll be keeping an eye on it's advancement. Not shooting full tilt loads, or even mid range ones, for that matter.

 

[Pistolero]

I sent back a used Ruger Standard Auto Target Model and they replaced everything but the
barrel, receiver and bolt......it had misfires. When I bought it, it was about 30 yrs old, although
in nearly new condition. Zero cost repair.

Never have sent back another gun, but did ream my cylinders on .45 Conv BH and have done lots of
trigger jobs on my guns.

Bill

 

[Cherokee]

In the last 4 years I have had to send back four guns to the factory for repair. All were repaired quickly, did not cost me a dime and returned to good service. Prior to this, I had never had to return a gun. Three of the guns were current production models, one was older with a lifetime warranty.

 

[shootnlead]

Speaking of returning guns...

In the past 3yrs...I have bought 5 new Ruger single action revolvers...of those 5, 3 have had to be returned.

I am getting Taurus quality at Ruger prices.

 

[Longone]

Recently I treated myself to an Ed Brown Kobra Carry as I've been a pretty good boy this year. And as luck would have it the trigger was a big disappointment, there was the normal take up followed by a creep, creep and then release of the hammer.
So I called and got the std. "there is supposed to be movement" answer. I agree that there has to be some movement between the sear and hammer if the gun is going to work but it should not be detectable. At least not in a hand gun in that price range!!!
Bottom line is I put a new sear from Harrison design (their True Radius) and the trigger is now what It should have been. I don't think I'll be playing the Lottery any time soon.

 

[smokeywolf]

Accountants have too much influence over management in many manufacturing concerns. Manufacturing quotas are increased, tolerances are loosened, QC is under staffed and under budgeted and regardless of higher reject and return ratios, workers who produce more parts are rewarded.

I think perhaps the old idiom, "you get what you pay for" is particularly relevant in the selection and purchase of new firearms.

 

[Cherokee]

As a retired accountant, I have to disagree with your statement. The majority of accountants are in a record keeping, information and advisory mode for management...it is management that makes the decisions to do this or that. Management sets the policy and requires compliance. Management is always looking for ways to increase profits...they have to answer to the owners (or stockholders), who are always looking for more profits. Management has to make the commitment to quality, set the policy and monitor performance, otherwise it will suffer.

 

[Ian]

I kinda have to disagree too, because I've payed a premium and gotten the sausage on shoddy firearms just about every time. Don't get me started on the latest fiasco with a genuine Colt M1991, you know, the one where the company that invented the platform in the first place somehow forgot that the END of the barrel hood is supposed to contact the breech face and drive the barrel into battery, not have a .070" gap there so the right side of the barrel hood relief does the contacting and beats up the side of the slide, not to mention makes the barrel lock up crooked. I guess it's called a "loaded chamber indicator" if you can see not only the case rim but a little bit of the extractor groove when looking down at the chamber from the top. Even my $1100 Kimber 1911 had numerous problems and one glaring slide defect, straight from the factory. I could do this all night. One shining example of a rifle which needed only a patch through the bore and three drops of oil to work perfectly straight out of the box and continue to do so has been my Henry Big Boy, and the first one I was going to get didn't make it out of the store without having a major problem right there at the gun counter.

I think it's better said that "you pays your money and you takes your chances", and the "premium" comes from buying your project guns from a company that has a good reputation for handling warranty claims and can take their own projects back for completion rather than Joe Consumer having to do it for them. Bill's recent thread on a certain brand-new "project gun" is a shining example of knowing you're probably going to have to fix the brand-new gun before ever shooting it.

 

[smokeywolf]

The majority of accountants are in a record keeping, information and advisory mode for management

Although I agree that it's management that bears full responsibility for cost/quality cutting, it's that "advisory mode" that I think sometimes paints a picture for management of increased profits without any negative side-effects.

I know that this is not always the case, but in management meetings I've attended as a department head and as a purchasing manager, I have personally seen this happen.

 

[Ian]

One of my favorite engineer jokes, stolen from another site:

A man is flying in a hot air balloon and realizes he is lost. He reduces height and spots a man down below. He lowers the balloon further and shouts: "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised my friend I would meet him half an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."

The man below says: "Yes. You are in a hot air balloon, hovering approximately 30 feet above this field. You are between 40 and 42 degrees N. latitude, and between 58 and 60 degrees W. longitude."

"You must be an engineer" says the balloonist.

"I am" replies the man. "How did you know."

"Well" says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost."

The man below says "You must be a manager."

"I am" replies the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well", says the man, "you don't know where you are, or where you are going. You have made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. The fact is you are in the exact same position you were in before we met, but now it is somehow my fault."

 

[RicinYakima]

Great one Ian!

My nephew was an electrical engineer, then got an MBA from a famous school, went into management and is now a senior VP with a Fortune 500 Company. Over whisky I asked how they made decisions about final quality and price per unit weighted against customer satisfaction. His reply was that his salary and bonuses were tied 100% to the profit the company made on a rolling 18 month average.