Lesson learned
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
TC as a separate operation to .466 or so, this can be critical, not in every gun. Like I said, the overwhelming
majority of .45 ACP jamming on handloaded H&G 68s was solved by adding more taper crimp
as a separate operation. Saw this for decades in IPSC.
Yes, lead pushing is why you have to crimp as a separate operation with this bullet, it has
no crimp groove, so must be done as a separate op. Any TC die will reach .466, in my
experience.
Cannot guanantee this will solve it, but I can tell you that I have had this same converstation
literally dozens of time at a match and usually would hand the guy one of my rounds and say "Make it
like this for LOA, and taper crimp as a separate operation until it looks exactly like this."
Every time, presto, jamming stopped. May not work for you, but . . . .
Spend $10 -
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...ACPAuto-RimScholfieldWin-Mag-Taper-Crimp-Die-
Brad - yeah, I get that a lot. My ammo also works every time in almost any gun. Some
guns will put up with .470 crimp or "just straighten out the flare" as is OFTEN recommended,
but for a dirty gun and or tight chamber, tighten up that TC. Folks keep complaining that "it
headspaces on the case mouth, it won't work" -- trust me, it works very well indeed.
Since .470 is the straight case diam, .466 is only .002 smaller on a side, this is REALLY
small, NOT some radical super tight crimp. I run .465 to .466 when setting up.
Bill
majority of .45 ACP jamming on handloaded H&G 68s was solved by adding more taper crimp
as a separate operation. Saw this for decades in IPSC.
Yes, lead pushing is why you have to crimp as a separate operation with this bullet, it has
no crimp groove, so must be done as a separate op. Any TC die will reach .466, in my
experience.
Cannot guanantee this will solve it, but I can tell you that I have had this same converstation
literally dozens of time at a match and usually would hand the guy one of my rounds and say "Make it
like this for LOA, and taper crimp as a separate operation until it looks exactly like this."
Every time, presto, jamming stopped. May not work for you, but . . . .
Spend $10 -
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.c...ACPAuto-RimScholfieldWin-Mag-Taper-Crimp-Die-
Brad - yeah, I get that a lot. My ammo also works every time in almost any gun. Some
guns will put up with .470 crimp or "just straighten out the flare" as is OFTEN recommended,
but for a dirty gun and or tight chamber, tighten up that TC. Folks keep complaining that "it
headspaces on the case mouth, it won't work" -- trust me, it works very well indeed.
Since .470 is the straight case diam, .466 is only .002 smaller on a side, this is REALLY
small, NOT some radical super tight crimp. I run .465 to .466 when setting up.
Bill
Last edited:
Ian
Notorious member
Ok went and played with this some more. I have three problems, one with the bullet, one with the crimp, and one with the magazine. Actually, they're all bullet related because I don't much have these issues with other designs. The bullet has an almost 90' step from the front band to the base of the nose, which I have cussed since I first got this mould because it makes them an un-necessary bitch to get good fillout or to shuck them from the mould. Second, when I tightened the crimp to .469" things got a lot better. Third, with the extra crimp and two or more in the magazine, the cartridge being chambered kicks up TOO far in the back and when letting the slide down easy jams the shoulder of the bullet against the feed ramp and the side of the case bites into the hood. When letting the slide go on its own, they chamber, but get a nice smiley face crease right in the lube groove area of the case. When the last one in the magazine feeds in by just dropping the slide and using the extra crimp, it seems to feed just fine.
I tried this again with the same magazines and my Springfield and it feeds mostly ok by hand with the extra crimp, but I think it could do better with a tapered-lip magazine.
Oh, and it's going to be a VERY tall order to get either my Bonanza, Lee, or RCBS crimp dies will do .465" without crushing the case. The RCBS got the closest, at .467".
I tried this again with the same magazines and my Springfield and it feeds mostly ok by hand with the extra crimp, but I think it could do better with a tapered-lip magazine.
Oh, and it's going to be a VERY tall order to get either my Bonanza, Lee, or RCBS crimp dies will do .465" without crushing the case. The RCBS got the closest, at .467".
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Your Lee taper crimp only die won't reach .466???? Or are you talking about single
seat and crimp dies with roll shoulder? Early release is popping the round up, still they catch on hood
is the too big taper crimp - makes a HARD, SHARP BRASS corner which can catch. TC more
and it suddenly is slick and doesn't catch.
Believe me the 90 deg bullet shoulder is irrelevant for feeding - EXCEPT in a pure old
military barrel with square sides on the rear. All 1911 barrels I have seen since at
least mid80s have had proper throating on the sides to be zero issue.
Mag is holding the rear too far down and taper crimp is too big.
Have you set your extractor tension? Pull firing pin stop and firing pin, then pull
extractor. Reseating the extractor should take nice, firm thumb pressure, say
5 lbs or so. If more or less, pull extractor, reverse and insert fat rear into slide,
then using the slide as a lever, put the tip on a wooden surface that you don't
mind damaging and bend extractor for more or less tension. May have a way
too tight extractor, too.
Bill
seat and crimp dies with roll shoulder? Early release is popping the round up, still they catch on hood
is the too big taper crimp - makes a HARD, SHARP BRASS corner which can catch. TC more
and it suddenly is slick and doesn't catch.
Believe me the 90 deg bullet shoulder is irrelevant for feeding - EXCEPT in a pure old
military barrel with square sides on the rear. All 1911 barrels I have seen since at
least mid80s have had proper throating on the sides to be zero issue.
Mag is holding the rear too far down and taper crimp is too big.
Have you set your extractor tension? Pull firing pin stop and firing pin, then pull
extractor. Reseating the extractor should take nice, firm thumb pressure, say
5 lbs or so. If more or less, pull extractor, reverse and insert fat rear into slide,
then using the slide as a lever, put the tip on a wooden surface that you don't
mind damaging and bend extractor for more or less tension. May have a way
too tight extractor, too.
Bill
Last edited:
Ian
Notorious member
That seems to be a large part of my problem, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to help me discover it, I never dreamed it would take that much crimp to make this combination even sorta work. But, no way am I going to taper-crimp that much on production ammo to appease a bullet I don't like very much anyway to make function marginal at best. This mould is going down the river, which will make me zero for three on MP moulds.
ETA, actually, the Lee combo got to .460" with the seating stem out but it had started buckling the case before then.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
It is NOT a radical taper crimp! It is actually pretty mild. Look at that round.
You need a separate TC die, I always say this is a mandatory step for .45 ACP if
you want good ammo.
If yours is different from an H&G 68, then you may be right. If it is a true clone,
it is THE MOST reliable feeder for 1911s, really. All those IPSC guys didn't use it,
in a no whining game where a jam would cost you a match for certain because it
was unreliable. It is not. It is also a very accurate bullet design.
How about I send you a few dozen rounds to see if they work?
Reread your signature line. ;-)
Bill
You need a separate TC die, I always say this is a mandatory step for .45 ACP if
you want good ammo.
If yours is different from an H&G 68, then you may be right. If it is a true clone,
it is THE MOST reliable feeder for 1911s, really. All those IPSC guys didn't use it,
in a no whining game where a jam would cost you a match for certain because it
was unreliable. It is not. It is also a very accurate bullet design.
How about I send you a few dozen rounds to see if they work?
Reread your signature line. ;-)
Bill
Last edited:
Ian
Notorious member
I just tried again with the Lee. FINALLY got it to .465" at the mouth without buckling the case by lubing the outside of the case. Seated the bullet to 1.265" on the money, then after pulling the seating plug/stem out again and getting the crimp made, the COAL is 1.246" and it looks like a heeled bullet with front band and case mouth being squeezed into one.
The MP 452-200-SWC has the same as a 90' front band and the edge is razor-sharp from the mould. Note how yours is radiused, and note how many of the other copies such as Accurate's have a pretty significant angle between front band and nose. That alone was probably better than half of my problem.
Here ya go:
This is .465" at the case mouth, exactly, Lee die with the stem out. It moves so much metal to do that that the front band actually has a significant negative draft angle. Also note the smiley face on the case from chambering, which almost got ironed out when I went back and crimped on it some more.
While we're at it, note the little dimples and tear marks in the bullet noses. Those were some I saved from the first casting session, before I fixed, it, to illustrate the issue. Where it looks like claw marks, that's where the dimples tore out metal as I beat them free of the mould. No draft angle on the first band GREATLY exacerbated this problem. I don't know who designed this particular cherry, but they need to have their heads examined.
The MP 452-200-SWC has the same as a 90' front band and the edge is razor-sharp from the mould. Note how yours is radiused, and note how many of the other copies such as Accurate's have a pretty significant angle between front band and nose. That alone was probably better than half of my problem.
Here ya go:
This is .465" at the case mouth, exactly, Lee die with the stem out. It moves so much metal to do that that the front band actually has a significant negative draft angle. Also note the smiley face on the case from chambering, which almost got ironed out when I went back and crimped on it some more.
While we're at it, note the little dimples and tear marks in the bullet noses. Those were some I saved from the first casting session, before I fixed, it, to illustrate the issue. Where it looks like claw marks, that's where the dimples tore out metal as I beat them free of the mould. No draft angle on the first band GREATLY exacerbated this problem. I don't know who designed this particular cherry, but they need to have their heads examined.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
That is a beautiful bullet! It WILL feed in a 1911 when loaded correctly and with
good mags, and proper extractor tension. Also, I am measuring RIGHT AT the
case mouth, it looks like your .465 may extend back .010 or more, that is too much.
Hard as heck to measure, takes a careful eye and fiddling with a caliper.
It will be very accurate, too. That square corner is not a problem, the one I
showed is just a cheap mass produced bullet, rounded everywhere to make
them FAST, poor mold fill out.
You really need the TC die, that is just the wrong tool for that job.
The dimples are strange. Can't figure how you would put them there
on purpose! Well, with a machine too. I could do it with a hammer & punch -
assuming that they stick up in the bullet and are a dent in the mold
instead of vice versa.
Does that much shoulder sticking out hit the throat? If so you need to
go about .010 to .020 deeper for that particular version of the design.
However, my old Kimber and all my Colts would eat that round up. May
stick in the throat of my Dan Wessons.
OK bedtime. Best wishes. YOU CAN make that feed.
Bill
good mags, and proper extractor tension. Also, I am measuring RIGHT AT the
case mouth, it looks like your .465 may extend back .010 or more, that is too much.
Hard as heck to measure, takes a careful eye and fiddling with a caliper.
It will be very accurate, too. That square corner is not a problem, the one I
showed is just a cheap mass produced bullet, rounded everywhere to make
them FAST, poor mold fill out.
You really need the TC die, that is just the wrong tool for that job.
The dimples are strange. Can't figure how you would put them there
on purpose! Well, with a machine too. I could do it with a hammer & punch -
assuming that they stick up in the bullet and are a dent in the mold
instead of vice versa.
Does that much shoulder sticking out hit the throat? If so you need to
go about .010 to .020 deeper for that particular version of the design.
However, my old Kimber and all my Colts would eat that round up. May
stick in the throat of my Dan Wessons.
OK bedtime. Best wishes. YOU CAN make that feed.
Bill
Last edited:
Ian
Notorious member
The only think I can't argue with you about is the accuracy, they do shoot VERY well after one finally manages to get them into the chamber, but then again that's with barely any actual crimp at all. I have no idea how they shoot when crushed to .465-6". What die are you using? I found another one in my stash, a Pacific Durachrome, but it crimps as sharply as the Lee. The RCBS had a more narrow taper but ultimately made the "heeled" bullet thing too.
The meplats of the mould cavities actually had raised teats on them. Every cavity. Three of them, except one where one ended up on the parting line. The other three cavities had one teat on one side and two on the other. They were about .005" high. A machining impossibility with a cherry, I know, but they were there nevertheless. If you look closely you can see the three dimples in every bullet's meplat. Another picture I took showed the dimples better but not the one with the three big gouges in it. The bullet in the forefront has a gouge leading down and to the left away from one dimple, that's on the side that drug when the blocks were opened. It took a very long time with bright light, a very sharp X-acto knife, and my 20x machinist's microscope to get them shaved flat so they didn't mechanically lock the bullets in the cavities.
The meplats of the mould cavities actually had raised teats on them. Every cavity. Three of them, except one where one ended up on the parting line. The other three cavities had one teat on one side and two on the other. They were about .005" high. A machining impossibility with a cherry, I know, but they were there nevertheless. If you look closely you can see the three dimples in every bullet's meplat. Another picture I took showed the dimples better but not the one with the three big gouges in it. The bullet in the forefront has a gouge leading down and to the left away from one dimple, that's on the side that drug when the blocks were opened. It took a very long time with bright light, a very sharp X-acto knife, and my 20x machinist's microscope to get them shaved flat so they didn't mechanically lock the bullets in the cavities.
smokeywolf
Well-Known Member
I typically TC to .470, but do a .003 to .005 edge break on the outside edge of the case mouth on all of my ACP brass. Haven't seen that in the pictures or any mention of this practice among you gentlemen.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Not a bad thing at all, smokeywolf, but when you make .45 ACP by the 50 cal ammo can full, as I was
in years past, that sort of hand work just won't be in the mix. It may help Ian, but isn't
usually necessary with a good TC.
Ian - my .45 ACP is loaded on a Dillon 550, the TC die is RCBS dated 1981, when I was figuring
this out and starting out in IPSC. Are you looking at any dies that say "Taper Crimp Die",
if not you really need to spend the $10 on a Lee TC die and use that. The other 'seat and
crimp' dies are just not the correct tool, will never do what you need.
Have you checked extractor tension? There is that, and another potential extractor issue, if you are up for
a few minutes work to tune the extractor, all this ensures slick smooth feeding. Enough tiny things
wrong and piled on top of each other and you get failures. I can show you the extractor tuning and
you can easily fix that too, not sure if you want to keep chasing this but it absolutely is fixable.
Let me know if you want an explanation of the simple extractor tune.
Hard fact: 1911s feed H&G 68s when loaded properly. If one doesn't it has issues and they can be fixed,
either ammo or gun, but they are fixable. They are also unusual. Of course, to the victim,
they are 100%.
Bill
in years past, that sort of hand work just won't be in the mix. It may help Ian, but isn't
usually necessary with a good TC.
Ian - my .45 ACP is loaded on a Dillon 550, the TC die is RCBS dated 1981, when I was figuring
this out and starting out in IPSC. Are you looking at any dies that say "Taper Crimp Die",
if not you really need to spend the $10 on a Lee TC die and use that. The other 'seat and
crimp' dies are just not the correct tool, will never do what you need.
Have you checked extractor tension? There is that, and another potential extractor issue, if you are up for
a few minutes work to tune the extractor, all this ensures slick smooth feeding. Enough tiny things
wrong and piled on top of each other and you get failures. I can show you the extractor tuning and
you can easily fix that too, not sure if you want to keep chasing this but it absolutely is fixable.
Let me know if you want an explanation of the simple extractor tune.
Hard fact: 1911s feed H&G 68s when loaded properly. If one doesn't it has issues and they can be fixed,
either ammo or gun, but they are fixable. They are also unusual. Of course, to the victim,
they are 100%.
Bill
Last edited:
Odd, my extractor will almost fall out of its own weight. No tension at all. It never fails to extract or jams. At this point I call it good. I don't like fixing that which isn't broken.
Just shows that every gun is an individual. In Ian's case he has a combination of gun, mould, and magazines that just don't mesh.
Just shows that every gun is an individual. In Ian's case he has a combination of gun, mould, and magazines that just don't mesh.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Brad, I recommend putting a modest amount of tension on your extractor for consistent feeding and
ejection. Your gun, your choice, but that isn't right. I would expect that your cases go all over
the points of the compass on ejection, correct? Also, probably some short and some long distance.
There is both too little and too much extractor tension, neither is correct.
Bill
ejection. Your gun, your choice, but that isn't right. I would expect that your cases go all over
the points of the compass on ejection, correct? Also, probably some short and some long distance.
There is both too little and too much extractor tension, neither is correct.
Bill
Ian
Notorious member
I have THREE 1911's and NONE of them work properly with this bullet the way I was loading them before. I'm still going to look at magazines as mentioned, and might get a dedicated taper crimp die (turns out I don't own one), but my interest in continuing to fight with this particular bullet is long gone. I'd be willing to bet that if the front band were angled to the nose or radiused like the H&G #68, it would feed properly. The mould would also be a damn sight easier to cast with, too.
My Kimber might have extractor issues, it flings brass willy-nilly and at least one in each magazine clocks me hard in the bridge of the nose. I have changed the ejector to a Wilson Combat but it made no difference. Being left-handed, the ejection pattern matters more than normal and getting hit between the eyes regularly is very disconcerting.
My Kimber might have extractor issues, it flings brass willy-nilly and at least one in each magazine clocks me hard in the bridge of the nose. I have changed the ejector to a Wilson Combat but it made no difference. Being left-handed, the ejection pattern matters more than normal and getting hit between the eyes regularly is very disconcerting.
It does throw them all over. If that can be somewhat corrected by adding tension then I will do so today. I figured it was just the way it was with a 1911.
My CZ75 B throws 90 percent of it's brass in a 4 ft circle. My 1911 throws 90 percent of its brass to the right. It generally is inside a 20 foot cicle.
My CZ75 B throws 90 percent of it's brass in a 4 ft circle. My 1911 throws 90 percent of its brass to the right. It generally is inside a 20 foot cicle.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Sorry you are so burned out on that bullet, but all previous work was spinning wheels.
TC as a separate operation will fix it. Like I said, this has been seen many, many times
before and almost all of the time, TC was the issue. I always warn folks that making
proper .45 ACP ammo requires TC as a separate operation. Note that this is why
the Dillon 450 and 550 have four stations - they were designed for IPSC shooters and
the separate TC station was mandatory for good ammo.
The extractor tension info was in a previous post. Brad has to futz with the firing pin lock
plunger with his Series 80 Colt, but not too bad, really.
The other extractor issue is easiest dealt with in a photo, later. Short version is that the
area where the rim contacts the extractor, just behind the hook, bottom inboard corner
should be filed to a nice smooth radius and then polished with a 1/16th inch wide piece
of 360 or 400 grit wet or dry like polishing a shoe, for those old enough to remember than
lost art. This lets the rim slide smoothly under the extractor. Most extractors have a
45 chamfer but some are sharp 90. Sharp 90 is VERY BAD, and can be a significant
contributor to jamming, all by itself.
No offense, but while I am a big fan of Wilson guns, and have shipped them many thousands
of $ over the years for two custom 1911s, I would not buy their extractor. Strongly recommend
Ed Brown for all small 1911 parts, they are always PERFECT. Wilson parts, unfortunately, are
not. Installed one Wilson extractor for a friend and set the tension properly. Started having
problems within a week. Checked tension - ZERO, extractor had not been heat treated was
dead soft........he sent it back and got a good one, BUT.
Bill
TC as a separate operation will fix it. Like I said, this has been seen many, many times
before and almost all of the time, TC was the issue. I always warn folks that making
proper .45 ACP ammo requires TC as a separate operation. Note that this is why
the Dillon 450 and 550 have four stations - they were designed for IPSC shooters and
the separate TC station was mandatory for good ammo.
The extractor tension info was in a previous post. Brad has to futz with the firing pin lock
plunger with his Series 80 Colt, but not too bad, really.
The other extractor issue is easiest dealt with in a photo, later. Short version is that the
area where the rim contacts the extractor, just behind the hook, bottom inboard corner
should be filed to a nice smooth radius and then polished with a 1/16th inch wide piece
of 360 or 400 grit wet or dry like polishing a shoe, for those old enough to remember than
lost art. This lets the rim slide smoothly under the extractor. Most extractors have a
45 chamfer but some are sharp 90. Sharp 90 is VERY BAD, and can be a significant
contributor to jamming, all by itself.
No offense, but while I am a big fan of Wilson guns, and have shipped them many thousands
of $ over the years for two custom 1911s, I would not buy their extractor. Strongly recommend
Ed Brown for all small 1911 parts, they are always PERFECT. Wilson parts, unfortunately, are
not. Installed one Wilson extractor for a friend and set the tension properly. Started having
problems within a week. Checked tension - ZERO, extractor had not been heat treated was
dead soft........he sent it back and got a good one, BUT.
Bill
I just added some tension to my extractor. It literally fell out of the slide under it's own weight before but not now.
Here are some photos of the MP 200 swc feeding in my Gold Cup with no recoil spring, makes it far easier to slow things down and stop mid cycle.
Notice that as before the round is loose from the magazine the rim is positioned to slip under the extractor hook. The magazine and gun allow controlled round feeding, like it was designed to do. The nose never gets anywhere near high enough to allow the bullet to impact the barrel hood. Round feeds at a low angle right into the chamber.
Here are some photos of the MP 200 swc feeding in my Gold Cup with no recoil spring, makes it far easier to slow things down and stop mid cycle.
Notice that as before the round is loose from the magazine the rim is positioned to slip under the extractor hook. The magazine and gun allow controlled round feeding, like it was designed to do. The nose never gets anywhere near high enough to allow the bullet to impact the barrel hood. Round feeds at a low angle right into the chamber.