Powder Storage question

oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
I THINK I know the answer to this, but... My small chest freezer crapped out. Considered - for about 10 seconds - using it for smokeless powder storage.

I know general info says wooden cabinets. And I am ASSUMING that the metal chest freezer would not be a good idea, as it could "contain" the powder in a fire, for a potential explosion hazard.

Am I correct? The metal freezer is a bad idea? Only other thought was if it was well vented (I am not beyond drilling vent holes in it at all! It is now just a metal box...). TIA
 
oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Thanx Smokey! Guess I shouldn't leave the 50 lb bag of dog food on top of it then! Top is gravity secured, so no issue there. a plus is, fire elsewhere in the house (it is in the garage) I could push out out quick.
 
JBinMN

JBinMN

Member
I keep my primers in a wooden US military grenade box. Separate from the powder supplies by about 20- 25 feet. (The box holds approx.30K in primers,maybe a bit more.) It would only store maybe 8-10 1# powder bottles/jugs depending on the bottle/jugs shapes.

The powders I store are in the original bottle/jugs and are simply on shelves. I currently only have 1 - 8# jug/keg left and I just have it sitting by itself on the floor.
Since I have more than 20# of smokeless powders & BP substitutes, (approx.40-50#) in 1# bottles, I just keep them in the original containers but they are separated by about 40 -50 feet from each supply or approx.20-25# each store.

I have just not gotten around to obtaining the materials & building some enclosed shelves/cabinets for them, so I just have them separated until I do find that time. Eventually I will do it, but I think that keeping them separated in my basement has been sufficient to be considered "due diligence" in making an attempt to store them reasonably well, until the cabinets are built.
I am starting to try to downsize my supplies since I am getting older & with some health issues, so I have not been shooting as much. As well, my oldest son & DIL, along with my grandsons moved to Fla., so I now don't have the extra shooters in the family to warrant larger supplies & so I may just try to use up much of the powders in the coming year to reduce the different types/quantities to a smaller number of types and save myself the need for more than one storage cabinet.

Thus, as you can see, based on the amount of powders I currently have, I would rather use wooden cabinets than a freezer or even ice chests/coolers/plastic bins for storage.

Your situation may , and likely is not the same as mine so I don't know how much of what I shared would be helpful to you.
The amount of powder you keep or intend to keep yourself (and perhaps other friends/family shooters) supplied with powders, might play into your decision(s) on their storage.

Even though not knowing the quantity of powder you have or plan to have, the below info on page 4 (of 4) of this .PDF from SAAMI might be helpful to you. I Bolded & Underlined what I thought would be the most relative parts)

Chapter 11
Small Arms Ammunition and Primers, Smokeless Propellants,
and Black Powder Propellants
11-1 Basic Requirements.
11-1.1 In addition to all other applicable requirements of this
code, intrastate transportation of small arms ammunition, small
arms primers, smokeless propellants, and black powder shall com-
ply with US Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials
Regulations, 49 CFR, Parts 100-199.
11-1.2 This chapter applies to the channels of distribution of and
to the users of small arms ammunition, small arms primers, smoke-
less propellants, and black powder.
11-1.3 This chapter does not apply to in-process storage and
intra-plant transportation during manufacture.
11-1.4 This chapter applies to the transportation and storage of
small arms ammunition and components.
11-1.5 This chapter does not apply to safety procedures in the use
of small arms ammunition and components.
11-3 Smokeless Propellants
11-3.1 Quantities of smokeless propellants not exceeding 25 lb.
(11.3 kg) in shipping containers approved by the U.S. Department of
Transportation, may be transported in a private vehicle.
11-3.2 Quantities of smokeless propellants exceeding 25 lb.
(11.3 kg) but not exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), transported in a pri-
vate vehicle, shall be transported in a portable magazine having
wood walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
11-3.3 Transportation of more than 50 lb. (22.7 kg) of smokeless
propellants in a private vehicle is prohibited.
11-3.4 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants in quanti-
ties not exceeding 100 lb. (45.4 kg) may be reclassed for trans-
portation purposes as flammable solids (Division 4.1) when pack-
aged in accordance with the U.S. Department of Transportation
Hazardous Materials Regulation (49 CFR, Part 173.171), and shall
be transported accordingly.
11-3.5 Commercial shipments of smokeless propellants exceeding
100 lb. (45.4 kg); or not packaged in accordance with the regula-
tions cited in 11-3.4 shall be transported in accordance with the
U.S. Department of Transportation regulations for Division 1.3C pro-
pellant explosives.
11-3.6 Smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping contain-
ers approved by US Department of Transportation.
11-3.7 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities
not exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in original
containers in residences. Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg), but not
exceeding 50 lb. (22.7 kg), shall be permitted to be stored in resi-
dences where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least
1 in. (25.4 mm) nominal thickness.
11-3.8 Not more than 20 lb. (9.1 kg) of smokeless propellants, in
containers of a 1 lb. (0.45 kg) maximum capacity shall be dis-
played in commercial establishments.
11-3.9 Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants shall be
stored as follows:
(a) Quantities exceeding 20 lb. (9.1 kg) but not exceeding 100 lb.
(45.4 kg) shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of
at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness.
(b) Quantities exceeding 100 lb. (45.4 kg) but not exceeding 800
lb. (363 kg) shall be stored in non-portable storage cabinets having
walls of at least 1 in. (25.4 mm) thickness. Not more than 400 lb.
(181 kg) shall be permitted to be stored in any one cabinet and
cabinets shall be separated by a distance of at least 25 ft (7.63 m)
or by a fire partition having a fire resistance of at least 1 hour. ...SNIP...

Source: https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/SAAMI_ITEM_200-Smokeless_Powder.pdf

G"Luck~! whatever ya decide to do.
:)
 
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D

Dusty Bannister

Well-Known Member
A fire rated dry wall material might also be a suitable material to make a few special sized boxes for dividing your powder supply. If constructed with a slip on cap, like a bee hive, then there would be very effective venting if you do have a fire. Some of the materials give a decent time element before they fail.
 
JonB

JonB

Halcyon member
oscarflytyer said:
Am I correct? The metal freezer is a bad idea? Only other thought was if it was well vented (I am not beyond drilling vent holes in it at all! It is now just a metal box...). TIA
Click to expand...
Using a old Freezer and/or old Frig as a powder magazine can be kind of a controversial topic and evolve into an argument easily enough. Because some do it and think nothing of if, and others think it's a stupid idea. I lean toward it being a stupid idea. I would never do it, but I can see how it could be done in a relatively safe fashion. When this gets discussed, I always wonder what the insurance adjuster would think?
 
J

Jeff H

NW Ohio
JonB said:
Using a old Freezer and/or old Frig as a powder magazine can be kind of a controversial topic and evolve into an argument easily enough. Because some do it and think nothing of if, and others think it's a stupid idea. I lean toward it being a stupid idea. I would never do it, but I can see how it could be done in a relatively safe fashion. When this gets discussed, I always wonder what the insurance adjuster would think?
Click to expand...

Why?
 
P

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
If you suffer a structure fire, the only real concern is you do not want your powder and primer storage to endanger firefighters. I don’t believe an old refrigerator or chest freezer with an UNLOCKED door will increase the danger.

The old refrigerator or freezer is a ready-made cabinet, which is what makes it attractive for storage. And the construction may help with normal control of storage temperature and humidity.

A wooden cabinet has several advantages in a fire. It slows the transfer of heat to the interior. And it becomes weaker in fire, reducing the chance that the container will become a bomb casing,

I might feel better about a refrigerator or freezer used as a powder locker if it had a large panel on the side or back that was essentially a “blow out” panel. Something that would burn or fail without containing a build up of pressure. Perhaps a large square section cut out of the metal casing and replaced with something intentionally weak. Maybe a 2’ x 2’ section of ¼” plywood? Something that would fail and vent the container long before the interior reached critical pressures.
 
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Jeff H

NW Ohio
SAAMI and the NFPA provide recommendations and guidelines. These are not law and neither organization has an enforcement arm. If a State, county or municipality decides to make laws based on the guidelines these entities provide, then someone may have something to say about it. One would be wise to research this down to the township or village level.

Unless some government entity makes it mandatory that one follows the codes, they are not mandatory, or not enforcible. In my county, there IS no electrical code - not even a blurb deferring to the National Electrical Code, AKA NEC, or NFPA70. So if a government entity or the insurance company does not stipulate, they can't hold it over one's head.

For commercial endeavors, it's usually different and the state will usually have laws regarding safety (like workplace safety), which almost always defer to the National codes produced by the NFPA. Such entities have the power to impose fines for infractions. WORSE, if a commercial entity violates such codes and someone suffers a loss, the CIVIL LAWYERS are usually the ones who will go after them.

We can speculate and hypothesize as to what's wise, but it's wisest to start asking questions of YOUR insurance company, YOUR township, county, municipality or state to see if where YOU live there are laws enforcing the adherence to these codes. It really all depends on where you live, so no one answer is THE answer.

Kudos to all who are trying to be diligent in following the guidelines.

Seriously though, having ALL your powder and primers in the same place may or may not make your house burn down faster.

It may or may not mean that the insurance company takes a closer look at how much culpability rests on your shoulders.

I may or may not mean getting in trouble with some level of government.

It WILL mean that ALL your powder and primers will disappear if you have a fire.
 
J

Jeff H

NW Ohio
Petrol & Powder said:
....I might feel better about a refrigerator or freezer used as a powder locker if it had a large panel on the side or back that was essentially a “blow out” panel. ....
Click to expand...

"Explosion Relief Panel."

Top is best, because it directs the blast upward instead of out. And don't pile stuff on top of it. This is done on industrial gas ovens, per NFPA 86.

Further, if at all possible, don't keep it IN the house and don't pack the thing chok-full of powder. Again, you'll lose ALL your powder if that container is in a fire.

Old refrigerators with actual latches MUST be locked or have the latch removed. I BELIEVE this is a federal law, written in response to too many kids playing hide-n-seek in one and suffocating in it when the other kids can't find him or her. THAT may well have been feel-good" legislation based on much hypothesizing, BUT it HAS happened.

So, if you lock it, make sure there is a way for the pressure to vent.
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Jeff H said:
SAAMI and the NFPA provide recommendations and guidelines. These are not law and neither organization has an enforcement arm. If a State, county or municipality decides to make laws based on the guidelines these entities provide, then someone may have something to say about it. One would be wise to research this down to the township or village level.

Unless some government entity makes it mandatory that one follows the codes, they are not mandatory, or not enforcible. In my county, there IS no electrical code - not even a blurb deferring to the National Electrical Code, AKA NEC, or NFPA70. So if a government entity or the insurance company does not stipulate, they can't hold it over one's head.
Click to expand...
/\ YES /\

100% correct.

As a group, firearms owners tend to be rule-followers. Not a bad trait. But we also get to live our own lives.

A friend of mine had a relative that built a house in West Virginia. When the time came to run electricity to the house they contacted the power company and were told the options. They elected to dig the necessary trench to run the lines to the house, they paid for the supply line and purchased all the equipment needed (meter cabinet, conduit, etc.). When the power company arrived they hooked everything up. The home owner, who had wired the house himself (and did it properly) asked if that was it? The power company employee said, "everything up to the meter is our's and it's safe. If the hosue burns down due to your wiring, THAT'S ON YOU".

That's how is should be.
 
oscarflytyer

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
this is a chest freezer. very light-weight top is perfect option. and I assume if I have a fire that gets to the garage, will prob loose everything anyway. I do keep 2-3 fire extinguishers in the garage (do wood-working as well/dust and what not). And do put my stain rags/etc in a metal bucket. I always thought that rags and stuff with chem/stain on them spontaneously combusting was hokey - until it wasn't! Neighbor house/they were rehab'ing, and 30 gal trash can combusted inside the house. It was smoky as hell and quite the mess! Fortunately they were there and got it out, but...
 
P

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Jeff H said:
Old refrigerators with actual latches MUST be locked or have the latch removed. I BELIEVE this is a federal law, written in response to too many kids playing hide-n-seek in one and suffocating in it when the other kids can't find him or her. THAT may well have been feel-good" legislation based on much hypothesizing, BUT it HAS happened.
Click to expand...
I don't know about federal law on this matter but Virginia has a state law to address this:

§ 18.2-319. Discarding or abandoning iceboxes, etc.; precautions required.​

It shall be unlawful for any person, firm or corporation to discard, abandon, leave or allow to remain in any place any icebox, refrigerator or other container, device or equipment of any kind with an interior storage area of more than two cubic feet of clear space which is airtight, without first removing the door or doors or hinges from such icebox, refrigerator, container, device or equipment.

This section shall not apply to any icebox, refrigerator, container, device or equipment which is being used for the purpose for which it was originally designed, or is being used for display purposes by any retail or wholesale merchant, or is crated, strapped or locked to such an extent that it is impossible for a child to obtain access to any airtight compartment thereof.

Any violation of the provisions of this section shall be punishable as a Class 3 misdemeanor.


So under Virginia law (only a class 3 misdemeanor which carries no jail time and only a max $500 fine) a repurposed refrigerator would need to be locked if it was converted to a storage cabinet OR configured so that it was not airtight or had less than 2 cubic feet of clear space.
 
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CWLONGSHOT

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
JonB said:
Using a old Freezer and/or old Frig as a powder magazine can be kind of a controversial topic and evolve into an argument easily enough. Because some do it and think nothing of if, and others think it's a stupid idea. I lean toward it being a stupid idea. I would never do it, but I can see how it could be done in a relatively safe fashion. When this gets discussed, I always wonder what the insurance adjuster would think?
Click to expand...
Well if ya gonna say that...

ANY SUCH STORAGE would likely be a issue!!!!!!!! ;) :p
 
fiver

fiver

Well-Known Member
umm water proof containers of powder will float.
found that out while taking a short cut across the lake while moving some ''stuff''
all 300lbs. of my powder are probably floating around the great salt lake by now.
 
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