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freebullet
Guest
Very nice!
Your ability with the mini lathe is most impressive.
Your ability with the mini lathe is most impressive.
Savage 99 restification project
- Thread starter Ian
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
It's a 4" chuck, I just wrapped my hand around it. One hand on the outboard spider, one on the chuck, alternate to keep the spindle turning. I thought about a crank, I could drill a couple holes in the spider, parallel with the spindle, and press some roller bearing elements in there for pins. A crank could be made out of flat material, drill a hole in the middle for work to pass through and two holes to engage the pins. However, with a lot of barrel sticking out past the spider a crank would be difficult to use. A better idea might be something like a 8-10" hand wheel with a hollow hub that would attach to the spider. Well and good, but I have very limited time these days, so my hands worked just fine to get through this one job.
An Aloris-style QCTP would have solved the problem anyway, so that's what I'll do first.
Bill, I had the advantage of youtube to learn basic threading. A couple videos by Tubalcain, Joe Pie, and in particular an "099" video by This Old Tony (complete with an excellent construction-paper model). I enjoy learning from books, but some things "click" a little faster with me when I can watch someone explaining theory as they demonstrate it all at once.
After I get the barrel completely fitted to the receiver and am happy with that, I'll switch to the steady rest and start the chamber work and the two cuts for the extractor and bolt alignment tab. Right now I'm trying to get all the tenon work finished while I can still pilot off of the dead center.
An Aloris-style QCTP would have solved the problem anyway, so that's what I'll do first.
Bill, I had the advantage of youtube to learn basic threading. A couple videos by Tubalcain, Joe Pie, and in particular an "099" video by This Old Tony (complete with an excellent construction-paper model). I enjoy learning from books, but some things "click" a little faster with me when I can watch someone explaining theory as they demonstrate it all at once.
After I get the barrel completely fitted to the receiver and am happy with that, I'll switch to the steady rest and start the chamber work and the two cuts for the extractor and bolt alignment tab. Right now I'm trying to get all the tenon work finished while I can still pilot off of the dead center.
Ian
Notorious member
For some reason, the face of the receiver wasn't even close to square, so I had to fix it. In this photo I'm actually about halfway there.
Here's the final fit inside the receiver, note how I peened the metal back in place in the feed ramp area. Glad I left .005" on the barrel shoulder! Turns out I left the shoulder as it was and didn't need to cut the face back, all the rest came off the receiver (about .003" actually).
MUCH better! It doesn't show up in the picture, but with a lot of filing and lapping, there's full contact at hand-tight now.
NOW I can finally start working on the chamber.
Here's the final fit inside the receiver, note how I peened the metal back in place in the feed ramp area. Glad I left .005" on the barrel shoulder! Turns out I left the shoulder as it was and didn't need to cut the face back, all the rest came off the receiver (about .003" actually).
MUCH better! It doesn't show up in the picture, but with a lot of filing and lapping, there's full contact at hand-tight now.
NOW I can finally start working on the chamber.
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Ian
Notorious member
A shot of my chambering setup. no room for a floating reamer holder with a barrel this thick in the middle since that's about as far as I can put it through the headstock and have room to indicated it on center. I set up the steady rest while the barrel was still piloted on the dead center in the tailstock. After pulling the barrel out to torque it in the action, make alignment marks, and scribe the cutout locations for extractor and bolt guide, I took it off the action again and mounted it back in the lathe, using only the off-side spider and steady rest to hold the barrel. I indicated off of a pin in the muzzle. The chuck isn't touching the barrel in this setup, and the indicator by the chuck is only for my curiosity to see how much bow there is in the outside coutour when the barrel is running between centers...as it turns out it's less than .001" total.
I got the chamber cut to full depth, but still have to cut the reliefs before I can confirm the headspace. I'm using a depth micrometer to check between bolt face and receiver face, then checking from barrel shoulder to barrel face and subtracting the amount that the "go" gauge countersinks in the barrel. I got it set up to the minimum, should be a tight close on the go gauge, and if it's too tight I'll just pull the barrel and kiss the chamber by hand with the reamer.
I got the chamber cut to full depth, but still have to cut the reliefs before I can confirm the headspace. I'm using a depth micrometer to check between bolt face and receiver face, then checking from barrel shoulder to barrel face and subtracting the amount that the "go" gauge countersinks in the barrel. I got it set up to the minimum, should be a tight close on the go gauge, and if it's too tight I'll just pull the barrel and kiss the chamber by hand with the reamer.
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freebullet
Guest
That is going to be one of the nicest examples around by the time your done.
What is the indicator mounted on in the last pic? Does the reamer leave a nice throat or do you think a throating reamer may be needed?
Grizzly might owe you a commission, err some gratis tools/tooling, heck they'd be money ahead to send you a free matching mini mill.
What is the indicator mounted on in the last pic? Does the reamer leave a nice throat or do you think a throating reamer may be needed?
Grizzly might owe you a commission, err some gratis tools/tooling, heck they'd be money ahead to send you a free matching mini mill.
Ian
Notorious member
The indicator (that isn't being used for that particular setup but is resting at the ready) is just a plain-jane magnetic base that came as a set from Matco tools. I used it for years to set up axle gears, check brake rotor and hub face run-out, set end-play on wheel bearings, check crankshaft end play, etc. etc. The top of the headstock is cast iron and flat, and there isn't much else in the way of a place to stick an indicator base to check things at the chuck, so that's where it lives now. I have a test indicator on a real test indicator base set up at the muzzle for indicating that end.
The reamer is a SAAMI-spec jobbie with the typical abrupt throat. I forget what it is exactly but it's something like a 15° angle from neck diameter to the top of the lands. I'll probably have to throat it, but since three of my four other 30-30s have a similar throat I may not mess with it...or I might buy a throating reamer and fix them all.
I think Grizzly should give away their mills, a person has to buy at least another $300-500 worth of accessories to even drill a hole with one (collet set, clamp set, vises, end mills, center finders, DRO, coolant mist system, and so on). Out of the crate they're just a boat anchor. The lathe is a bit more capable out of the crate with just another couple hundred bucks, assuming you have a bench grinder. With some live centers, a tailstock chuck, a 4-jaw chuck, and a fist full of HSS blanks, you're in business.
The reamer is a SAAMI-spec jobbie with the typical abrupt throat. I forget what it is exactly but it's something like a 15° angle from neck diameter to the top of the lands. I'll probably have to throat it, but since three of my four other 30-30s have a similar throat I may not mess with it...or I might buy a throating reamer and fix them all
.I think Grizzly should give away their mills, a person has to buy at least another $300-500 worth of accessories to even drill a hole with one (collet set, clamp set, vises, end mills, center finders, DRO, coolant mist system, and so on). Out of the crate they're just a boat anchor. The lathe is a bit more capable out of the crate with just another couple hundred bucks, assuming you have a bench grinder. With some live centers, a tailstock chuck, a 4-jaw chuck, and a fist full of HSS blanks, you're in business.
The people who say the lathe is the cheap part, the tooling is the expensive part are so right. You could spend a small fortune on boring bars, turning and threading tools, drill bits, etc. That doesn't include the measuring tools and a place to store all the goodies.
I would like a mill but also understand that it would require a significant outlay to just be useful. At least I already have 220V run to the garage.
I would like a mill but also understand that it would require a significant outlay to just be useful. At least I already have 220V run to the garage.
Ian
Notorious member
A bit more explanation of the challenge chambering one of these rifles presents may be in order.
The bolt has what I call a "guide" machined onto it, which amounts to a fin on the top that fits into a slot milled into the top of the barrel, similar to a typical extractor groove. There's an extractor groove too, of course, 90° to the right. The extractor can be removed from the bolt, but that alignment guide cannot be. What that means is the slot has to be cut for the bolt guide before the bolt will close. Cutting that guide means you can't cut the barrel shoulder any more, and better have the barrel fully fitted and torqued before the guide and extractor slots are milled. The barrel has to come off to mill the slots, but can go right back on in the same place with the same torque once fitted to the receiver.
So, since you have to fit the barrel before checking headspace, you have two options to get it right: Measure and cut the chamber to the measurements, or short-chamber the barrel and keep pulling it off to deepen the chamber bit by bit. I chose the first route because I have a depth mic and left myself about a thousandth to play with to get minimum headspace. In reality, when the bolt lockup slack is accounted for, it will be spot-on. If I totally screwed up, I have plenty of metal remaining to cut off the tenon and do it over. Why does the barrel have to be removed to deepen the chamber? Well.....there's no line of sight into the barrel from behind due to the receiver shape, so no good way to get a tap wrench or any other kind of driver in there. I suppose the reamer could be pushed in with finger pressure and turned with an open-end wrench through the ejection port, but that's a little dicey.
The bolt has what I call a "guide" machined onto it, which amounts to a fin on the top that fits into a slot milled into the top of the barrel, similar to a typical extractor groove. There's an extractor groove too, of course, 90° to the right. The extractor can be removed from the bolt, but that alignment guide cannot be. What that means is the slot has to be cut for the bolt guide before the bolt will close. Cutting that guide means you can't cut the barrel shoulder any more, and better have the barrel fully fitted and torqued before the guide and extractor slots are milled. The barrel has to come off to mill the slots, but can go right back on in the same place with the same torque once fitted to the receiver.
So, since you have to fit the barrel before checking headspace, you have two options to get it right: Measure and cut the chamber to the measurements, or short-chamber the barrel and keep pulling it off to deepen the chamber bit by bit. I chose the first route because I have a depth mic and left myself about a thousandth to play with to get minimum headspace. In reality, when the bolt lockup slack is accounted for, it will be spot-on. If I totally screwed up, I have plenty of metal remaining to cut off the tenon and do it over. Why does the barrel have to be removed to deepen the chamber? Well.....there's no line of sight into the barrel from behind due to the receiver shape, so no good way to get a tap wrench or any other kind of driver in there. I suppose the reamer could be pushed in with finger pressure and turned with an open-end wrench through the ejection port, but that's a little dicey.
F
freebullet
Guest
Yeah, I see the red base there now. Dunno why I didn't the other day. Mine is black, guess that threw me off.
Excellent explanations there. I knew it had something interfacing with the bolt, but didn't know the finer details.
I'm all for throating pistols, but much more cautious about doing rifles, understand waiting on that.
. Mine is black, guess that threw me off.Excellent explanations there. I knew it had something interfacing with the bolt, but didn't know the finer details.
I'm all for throating pistols, but much more cautious about doing rifles, understand waiting on that.
Ian
Notorious member
After sleeping on it a bit I did two things tonight that made for some more work before I cut slots in the tenon. First thing I did was lap the barrel shoulder to the face of the action with fine lapping compound. Square threads don't tend to find center very well, but they do find square, and I want absolutely no un-even stresses on the tenon. Turns out the receiver face was still about .0003 (yes, three zeros) out of square with the threads after my working on it a couple days ago. Now that I'm happy with the barrel seating situation, I went back and checked the bolt face with a depth mic having a smaller anvil than the one I used to do the other checking.
NEVER assume a bolt face is anywhere near square or flat. I did and it almost got me in trouble.
The bolt face is as much as .0019" out of square with the receiver face, and is lumpy/bumpy. I'm going to work it over with a stone and keep checking against the receiver face until I get it squared up and flat, which may involve cutting the barrel shoulder and rear face of the barrel some more to set the chamber back a titch. My headspace goal is to just feel the bolt close on the go gauge to .002" clearance on the go. The difference between go and no go is .004", so I'd like to be in the tight side of halfway.
I wasn't checking all the details very closely originally because I'm not building a match rifle, just trying to replace the rotten barrel. However, I'm already in there, so might as well check and fix everything as well as I can.
NEVER assume a bolt face is anywhere near square or flat. I did and it almost got me in trouble.
The bolt face is as much as .0019" out of square with the receiver face, and is lumpy/bumpy. I'm going to work it over with a stone and keep checking against the receiver face until I get it squared up and flat, which may involve cutting the barrel shoulder and rear face of the barrel some more to set the chamber back a titch. My headspace goal is to just feel the bolt close on the go gauge to .002" clearance on the go. The difference between go and no go is .004", so I'd like to be in the tight side of halfway.
I wasn't checking all the details very closely originally because I'm not building a match rifle, just trying to replace the rotten barrel. However, I'm already in there, so might as well check and fix everything as well as I can.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
It is amazing how out of square, lumpy, out of alignment and such that guns actually are
when you sit down and start measuring and checking.
You are braver and more cofident than I would be setting that chamber to .001 by external
measurement before you can directly check with the gauge against the bolt face. I have been
burned a few times with indirect measurements before and tend to leave more to correct for
summation, slack and other small errors that seem to arise magically when I try complex indirect
measurements.
Really impressive work, Ian. That is going to be the best shooting Savage 99 out
there when you are done. Talk about a salvage job.
As to a mill, yes, they take tooling, fortunately my small one (and the big one not
yet in service) came with a lot of tooling, saves a lot. But they sure can do a lot
of good work, too.
Bill
when you sit down and start measuring and checking.
You are braver and more cofident than I would be setting that chamber to .001 by external
measurement before you can directly check with the gauge against the bolt face. I have been
burned a few times with indirect measurements before and tend to leave more to correct for
summation, slack and other small errors that seem to arise magically when I try complex indirect
measurements.
Really impressive work, Ian. That is going to be the best shooting Savage 99 out
there when you are done. Talk about a salvage job.
As to a mill, yes, they take tooling, fortunately my small one (and the big one not
yet in service) came with a lot of tooling, saves a lot. But they sure can do a lot
of good work, too.
Bill