Shooting shack construction underway!
- Thread starter Ian
- Start date
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
I have seen the stuff the Romans did 2000+ years ago, and they did a LOT of really, truly amazing things.
The Pantheon in Rome has ONE PIECE granite columns, sixteen of them, 39 ft tall. They weigh about 60 tons each, and were
quarried in Egypt, moved 60+ miles from the quarry to the Nile and sailed to Rome, then moved and
erected. The front portico was aparently intended to be about 10 ft higher, based on the main building shape and
size. The accepted theory is that the columns were originally designed to be 49 ft tall, and proved to be too effing big
and heavy to make it to Rome and they had to back off a bit. On column might have been more than one ship could handle.
Or loading and unloading may have been impossible within their current limitations. A personal theory on some of
the large block movements is based on digging canals and floating them. Digging is really straight forward and
with lots of laborers, you can move a lot of dirt. Divert a stream to fill, then fill it back in when done. All sorts
of ways. They have discovered ancient canals from the Nile to the pyramids in recent years.
How in hell do you load a 39 ft long 5 ft diam, 60 ton stone column onto a ship in 100AD without flipping it over
and killing everyone? How do you get it back OFF? Try that for a 49 ft long column that probably weighed about 90
tons or so double (would have been larger diam). Hell that is more than a modern semi can carry by over 100,000 lbs.
60 tons is 120K lbs, Max GW for a semi is 80K lbs. Guessing maybe 70K lbs payload, so it would be a big deal
to move today.
There were a few way smart folks in those days. And kings could put 1000 or 5000 people at their back and call at
the snap of some royal fingers.
I have paid close attention to ancient Roman engineering since the middle 60s when I first lived in Italy and
saw so much of their detritus and faded glory all around us locally in Naples and Rome. Sure, they were
ahead of the other folks around the world.....but the limitations of rope, muscle power, wood and stone
as building materials were the same everywhere for thousans of years. Lots of REALLY smart folks. The more you
study ancient Roman engineering, the more marvelous you see it was. I have spend a good bit of time going over
Herculaneum and Pompeii, often spending time understanding their water systems, grain grinding, road building,
aquaducts and water powered milling operations. Still, if one will spend time understanding the Pantheon and the Colusseum,
plus Trajan's Market, you get an idea of how advanced they really were.
The Pantheon in Rome has ONE PIECE granite columns, sixteen of them, 39 ft tall. They weigh about 60 tons each, and were
quarried in Egypt, moved 60+ miles from the quarry to the Nile and sailed to Rome, then moved and
erected. The front portico was aparently intended to be about 10 ft higher, based on the main building shape and
size. The accepted theory is that the columns were originally designed to be 49 ft tall, and proved to be too effing big
and heavy to make it to Rome and they had to back off a bit. On column might have been more than one ship could handle.
Or loading and unloading may have been impossible within their current limitations. A personal theory on some of
the large block movements is based on digging canals and floating them. Digging is really straight forward and
with lots of laborers, you can move a lot of dirt. Divert a stream to fill, then fill it back in when done. All sorts
of ways. They have discovered ancient canals from the Nile to the pyramids in recent years.
How in hell do you load a 39 ft long 5 ft diam, 60 ton stone column onto a ship in 100AD without flipping it over
and killing everyone? How do you get it back OFF? Try that for a 49 ft long column that probably weighed about 90
tons or so double (would have been larger diam). Hell that is more than a modern semi can carry by over 100,000 lbs.
60 tons is 120K lbs, Max GW for a semi is 80K lbs. Guessing maybe 70K lbs payload, so it would be a big deal
to move today.
There were a few way smart folks in those days. And kings could put 1000 or 5000 people at their back and call at
the snap of some royal fingers.
I have paid close attention to ancient Roman engineering since the middle 60s when I first lived in Italy and
saw so much of their detritus and faded glory all around us locally in Naples and Rome. Sure, they were
ahead of the other folks around the world.....but the limitations of rope, muscle power, wood and stone
as building materials were the same everywhere for thousans of years. Lots of REALLY smart folks. The more you
study ancient Roman engineering, the more marvelous you see it was. I have spend a good bit of time going over
Herculaneum and Pompeii, often spending time understanding their water systems, grain grinding, road building,
aquaducts and water powered milling operations. Still, if one will spend time understanding the Pantheon and the Colusseum,
plus Trajan's Market, you get an idea of how advanced they really were.
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Not really a thread drift....
What's that Sean Connery line in the Untouchables movie? It's him trying to explain the "whys"..... they bring a knife,you bring a gun. They hurt one of your guys,you send one of them to the morgue.
Getting past Roman cheap labor..... aaaand that can be quite difficult for some,holding hands around a campfire but it's a matter of how much you "really" want something. Steamroll that $hit......
What's that Sean Connery line in the Untouchables movie? It's him trying to explain the "whys"..... they bring a knife,you bring a gun. They hurt one of your guys,you send one of them to the morgue.
Getting past Roman cheap labor..... aaaand that can be quite difficult for some,holding hands around a campfire but it's a matter of how much you "really" want something. Steamroll that $hit......
Ian
Notorious member
The Romans were advanced, no doubt. About as advanced as us except for the silicon IC, internal combustion engine, hydraulics, soap, and penicillin. However, there was a civilization (several probably) which they built on top of and re-used pieces of ruins. They did not have the technology to lathe-turn granite on the scale that they used as far as I've been able to tell. I think they re-used granite columns which were already scattered about from a previous, as yet unknown civilization. Many broken pieces of turned columns were used as rubble fill or decoration in masonry walls throughout the Mediterranean region, so either they were oopsies by the Romans or they were turned by someone else before them and subsequently destroyed in some cataclysm.
None of the known civilizations used true megalithic building techniques. None of them could work granite to the degree the ancient civilization could. None of them had the means to move the huge stones. None of them used seamless fitting and none of them left little protrusions on the finished faces of their stone walls. It is a mystery indeed who the ancients were and how they did their work. Easy enough to see how they did it if you think in terms of scanning a 3D model of the next stone needed and slicing it out of a solid mountainside with a curved hot wire and levitating it so it could be managed into position miles away by two or three people. But that technology doesn't exist today and it's difficult to imagine it ever existing anywhere.
None of the known civilizations used true megalithic building techniques. None of them could work granite to the degree the ancient civilization could. None of them had the means to move the huge stones. None of them used seamless fitting and none of them left little protrusions on the finished faces of their stone walls. It is a mystery indeed who the ancients were and how they did their work. Easy enough to see how they did it if you think in terms of scanning a 3D model of the next stone needed and slicing it out of a solid mountainside with a curved hot wire and levitating it so it could be managed into position miles away by two or three people. But that technology doesn't exist today and it's difficult to imagine it ever existing anywhere.
KeithB
Resident Half Fast Machinist
Ian, I look at things like this as an opportunity to learn from our ancestors. Would really like to see proof of turning (vs other methods) of columns.
Bill, I think it more likely that the ships (rafts more accurately) used to transport columns were probably anchored firmly in a drydock and then floated for loading/moving, and then drained/docked for unloading.
Bill, I think it more likely that the ships (rafts more accurately) used to transport columns were probably anchored firmly in a drydock and then floated for loading/moving, and then drained/docked for unloading.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
I was thinking the same thing, Keith. Given the incredible weight of the cargo, loading while floating
seems unlikely.
And Ian, they did not reuse those columns, they did know how to turn them that big out of solid granite, but
probably not on anything we would recognize as a lathe. Most modern folks who haven't really studied
Roman technology way, way underestimate what they could do. Probably more like a roller jig that moved
around the column and they chiseled to it, and then polished with a similar external roller jig. Turn the
tool, not the workpiece, if you can't do it on that big a scale.
I have a DVD course ..... I can highly recommend it to anyone interested in history. His hands on, built in
his own shop demos are really wonderful. 24 lectures, and the guy is really GOOD.
www.thegreatcourses.com
Bill
seems unlikely.
And Ian, they did not reuse those columns, they did know how to turn them that big out of solid granite, but
probably not on anything we would recognize as a lathe. Most modern folks who haven't really studied
Roman technology way, way underestimate what they could do. Probably more like a roller jig that moved
around the column and they chiseled to it, and then polished with a similar external roller jig. Turn the
tool, not the workpiece, if you can't do it on that big a scale.
I have a DVD course ..... I can highly recommend it to anyone interested in history. His hands on, built in
his own shop demos are really wonderful. 24 lectures, and the guy is really GOOD.
The Great Courses
www.thegreatcourses.com
Bill
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Rally
NC Minnesota
I like the idea Ian. Down there, as dry as it is, a sod roof wouldn't weigh that much, and would dry from both top and bottom. My question, after looking at the picture, is where are you going to get any "dirt" to cover the roof! The first house we rented at Ft. Hood (Killeen, Tx.) had stone pillar foundation. It was about 100 years old when we lived there, with a gorgeous pecan tree in the yard (yum). Hardwood floors weren't level, but they weren't bad either. Dove hunting was fantastic with about a 1/4 section of milo next to it and permission to hunt it.
Ian
Notorious member
I have a little bit of caliche mix stockpiled from road and ditching projects, maybe enough to do the roof. Topsoil doesn't really exist this high, I'm about a mile and 200' above the nearest permanent creek. Been studying known things like how to scribe in a log with a chainsaw, none of this will be easy. Pretty sure I'm going to scribe the whole thing rather than leave gaps and have to mess with chinking. Chinking is an expedient but always high maintenance.
Pistolero
Well-Known Member
Keith, the Greek columns were drums, stacked with central pins. Many of the Roman columns were done that
way, too. The Pantheon was a real showpiece, and the guy that most historians say designed it was amazing.
A 140 clear span concrete dome that still stands, perfectly intact. Pretty much the only Roman building that was never
destroyed by barbarians or earthquakes. Intact and still in use after 2000 years. The did redo the interior plaster
on the ceiling interior in about the 1700s, it was starting to crack after 1700 years. Shoddy workmanship, apparentely.
Original floor covering stone, from what I have been able to find out. The building astounded me when I first
visited it in the 8th grade, I had difficulty grasping that it wasn't rebuilt or refurbished, and that even the huge bronze
doors, which are swung closed each evening and open each morning are the originals. Like 20 ft tall by 8 ft wide
and 6-8" thick bronze. There is nothing about the building that isn't amazing.
Most historians think they did the columns in one piece just to show off that they could, and took slightly too big
a bite with the original 49 ft columns in one piece, so backed off to 39 ft and lowered the portico 10 ft. You can
see how the portico was lowered.
If you cut a square, flat bottomed notch on each log, they will lay fine. Look at a set of Lincoln logs. Flat on flat is
way easier to cut.
Bill
way, too. The Pantheon was a real showpiece, and the guy that most historians say designed it was amazing.
A 140 clear span concrete dome that still stands, perfectly intact. Pretty much the only Roman building that was never
destroyed by barbarians or earthquakes. Intact and still in use after 2000 years. The did redo the interior plaster
on the ceiling interior in about the 1700s, it was starting to crack after 1700 years. Shoddy workmanship, apparentely.
Original floor covering stone, from what I have been able to find out. The building astounded me when I first
visited it in the 8th grade, I had difficulty grasping that it wasn't rebuilt or refurbished, and that even the huge bronze
doors, which are swung closed each evening and open each morning are the originals. Like 20 ft tall by 8 ft wide
and 6-8" thick bronze.
There is nothing about the building that isn't amazing.Most historians think they did the columns in one piece just to show off that they could, and took slightly too big
a bite with the original 49 ft columns in one piece, so backed off to 39 ft and lowered the portico 10 ft. You can
see how the portico was lowered.
If you cut a square, flat bottomed notch on each log, they will lay fine. Look at a set of Lincoln logs. Flat on flat is
way easier to cut.
Bill
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Nix the sod roof, grandma went to school in one, leaks when raining (SE Ks). Lots o maintenance. Blue grass in Texas ? Ha. Ain't the Kentucky variety. Bodark posts work great but you never get them in that ground. If those are real creosote poles, plan on plaster or something on the inside - the fumes will get you. Wet or wax the blade of a crosscut saw for the logs, split out the notches.
Obelisk were one piece granite chiseled square/taper and then sanded with more 'granite'. Later carved to the ruler's desire. The one in St. Peter's is 330 tons, 80 ft long, moved by ship filled with lentils to prevent stress. Even the Egyptians used segmented columns - except for sandstone that was 'in-place'. Most of the granite was fractured vs cut. Had a friend that used an old shorty school bus for his 'shack'. Just another piece of 'junk' in the field.
Obelisk were one piece granite chiseled square/taper and then sanded with more 'granite'. Later carved to the ruler's desire. The one in St. Peter's is 330 tons, 80 ft long, moved by ship filled with lentils to prevent stress. Even the Egyptians used segmented columns - except for sandstone that was 'in-place'. Most of the granite was fractured vs cut. Had a friend that used an old shorty school bus for his 'shack'. Just another piece of 'junk' in the field.
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JonB
Halcyon member
I am a firm believer in what some call Ancient Aliens...which may or may not be like what the History channel portrays.
There are so many ancient things on our planet that are tough to explain, as well as some recent things that are tough to explain. Many of those things seem likely to have Alien technology influence.
There are so many ancient things on our planet that are tough to explain, as well as some recent things that are tough to explain. Many of those things seem likely to have Alien technology influence.
F
freebullet
Guest
Important to remember the geography of the world changes. Also when the talking heads ramble I feel as though I'm an alien, or..maybe..they are! Some are for sure.
I don't know about a sod roof keeping you dry long term. I'm crazy enough to try it to though, so what the heck. Not like your moving yer mom in there.
I don't know about a sod roof keeping you dry long term. I'm crazy enough to try it to though, so what the heck. Not like your moving yer mom in there.
F
freebullet
Guest
Also, I read a study on the sod houses in Nebraska. It was extremely common for sod roofs to have tar paper under them as soon as it became available.
RBHarter
West Central AR
There has to be other life out there .
Your average owner/operator semi tips in 32-34000 empty but very few have the weight to spare to pull off much over 41,500 . They're allowed 12,000 on the steering axle 14 with special tires . 34,000 on each pair of axles . Spread axles are allowed 40,000 on the trailer axles but the must be equally loaded at 20,000 each . Often loading comes down to a foot or less of load placement front to rear to scale out . I loaded some once that had a 10" margin of error and 60# to spare on both the truck drive axles and the trailer . The load was 8 pieces @ 21' ......not a lot of wiggle room on a 48' flatbed with 4' of dunnage .
There's lots of evidence of really clever devices and strong support for the 2nd Dynasty Egyptians having electric lighting .
Remember the Bagdad battery ? Of course it's also possible they weren't making power but just hopping up the wine ......
For those not aware it was a clay box with copper plates in it and stained with grape juice . After several months of study somebody made a clay box with plates in it to see what it was and I made a basic surface charge .
Many of the Greek and Roman buildings have been found to have plot and life sized assembly lines on the marble floors ......
One or 2 or 10 logs would have collapsed but with 60 each is only carrying 2000 lbs and I know for a fact that an old power pole will carry 5,000 lbs easy . 3-4 pieces of plastic pipe and one guy can move a 1000# across cement with one hand . So with 4-50 logs and 60-70 people moving a 60 ton piece gets really believable . The first was likely much harder than the second . In reality it probably got easier as it went each pass compacted the road a little more and the logs got rounder .
Your average owner/operator semi tips in 32-34000 empty but very few have the weight to spare to pull off much over 41,500 . They're allowed 12,000 on the steering axle 14 with special tires . 34,000 on each pair of axles . Spread axles are allowed 40,000 on the trailer axles but the must be equally loaded at 20,000 each . Often loading comes down to a foot or less of load placement front to rear to scale out . I loaded some once that had a 10" margin of error and 60# to spare on both the truck drive axles and the trailer . The load was 8 pieces @ 21' ......not a lot of wiggle room on a 48' flatbed with 4' of dunnage .
There's lots of evidence of really clever devices and strong support for the 2nd Dynasty Egyptians having electric lighting .
Remember the Bagdad battery ? Of course it's also possible they weren't making power but just hopping up the wine ......
For those not aware it was a clay box with copper plates in it and stained with grape juice . After several months of study somebody made a clay box with plates in it to see what it was and I made a basic surface charge .
Many of the Greek and Roman buildings have been found to have plot and life sized assembly lines on the marble floors ......
One or 2 or 10 logs would have collapsed but with 60 each is only carrying 2000 lbs and I know for a fact that an old power pole will carry 5,000 lbs easy . 3-4 pieces of plastic pipe and one guy can move a 1000# across cement with one hand . So with 4-50 logs and 60-70 people moving a 60 ton piece gets really believable . The first was likely much harder than the second . In reality it probably got easier as it went each pass compacted the road a little more and the logs got rounder .