bye-bye 223 Moving on to another caliber.

[Jeff H]

"a sneeze and a shart..."

THAT just about made me make that very noise when I read it but it was coffee coming out to top end, not a sneeze. I'll check the other end when I'm don typing.

The Turks take their arms industry pretty seriously and have been making double-shotguns of impressive quality for some time, for several sellers.

It's sort of like China and "cheap Chinese sh... junk" you get at the dollar store in contrast to what you CAN get from Chine if you're willing to be patient with their process and spend a bit more. I've dealt with this in business and engineering as well as privately. This is just to say that, today, we need to be careful about how we imagine capabilities based on limited past experiences.

I don't know TISA from Adam, but I bought a Kimber back in '95 or so, and it was a very nice pistol. It was only $500 then and required NO "work" to get it to shoot and shoot well. VERY reliable too.

Sometime between then and now, I bought a RIA Officer's Model, for something like $400, just to see how crappy a $400 1911 could be. In all honesty, the RIA was fully the equal of the Kimber I owned and required ZERO "work" to make it work and shoot well. DEAD-reliable as well.

I've owned a lot of 45s, half of which were 1911 patterns, and if I had to buy one today, I'd go look at what RIA had before bothering with anything else. It was fully as much gun as any at twice the money. I admit that I was amazed myself. I tore it completely down and the insides were as clean as if I'd gone over it myself. No scrap metal lying around, no burrs, no gobs of grease, oil and dirt or rust, like I've found in most new guns I've bought from other more famous makers.

 

[hporter]

And the third was a used early 1970’s vintage, blued, lightweight Commander that was a great pistol

That is the kind of Colt that gives me the wants - or an even older one for that matter. I hear what you are saying about Colt quality over the years. That is why I will probably just end up buying a Ruger Lightweight commander.

And I second the suggestion above to just buy the 1911 with the sights you want on them. I have the Novak's on my Ruger Commander and I do like them. The RIA has the tiny little classic colt sights that aren't as good. But I have always thought the BoMar target sights are the cats meow on a 1911. They seem to self align on the target just by magic. Big sights, but boy are they easy to shoot with for me.

 

[358156 hp]

No experience, but the Turks are importing a bunch of shotguns now, the break open ones I've looked at seem pretty good and I don't hear bad reviews of them. Been meaning to drop by Academy and pick up one of the little Yildiz .410 singles for a while now.

How hard can it be to produce a decent gun with a solid design like this?

You'd be amazed. Anybody remember Llamas? Spain has a really solid firearms manufacturing history, but this wasn't their finest moment. Star did well for the most part, I'd still like to have a PD. Hell, the last Colt I bought new had feeding issues. This one was made during their heydays of the late 1980s. I got it functional, then sold it off. Too much wrong. I replaced it with a stainless Colt from the late '70s, which I still have. An entry level 1911? Look at Springfield Mil-Spec, at least the slide and frame are forged steel. You may need to juggle springs a bit.

 

[richhodg66]

I have a PD, don't shoot it much, buit it works fine. Sure is light for a .45. Always thought the Star Fire was a better option for a small gun in a big caliber, never had the opportunity and money come together at the same time, though.

 

[Ian]

I'll reiterate....look for 1911 with a full-length slide. Most of the Kimbers are meant to carry or compete and have lightweight aluminum frames, avoid those. If you can find a full-size, plain Kimber steel frame I would highly recommend. Most come with Tritium sights that are very nice. Installing Novak sights is a $100 gunsmith bill, don't attempt it yourself unless you have the correct sight press, no beating on a radioactive capsule with a hammer and drift!!! You want steel, and full size if you want to enjoy shooting it. If you ever competed with an automatic you are familiar with the bounce and rhythm of fast shooting. The 5" 1911 with 230-grain bullets has a certain joy to it that none of the other configurations do. My 4.5" Kimber tactical pro II aluminum frame has a similar bounce to it with 200-grain bullets but it's much faster. That's the one I competed with when trying to improve my timing scores but most of the time I used the Springfield Armory steel full size with 230 grain cast bullets because it felt SOOO much better and I could shoot 15 stages with it before I got the "weak trembles" in my hands.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Going ALL the way back to the first post:

"....We (my son and I) want a true Colt 1911 in stainless steel. Having and enjoying a 1911….. [it] has been on my bucket list..... "

Many people on this thread (including me) have attempted to dissuade the OP from buying a new Colt or at least entice him to explore some of the 1911 clones.
The OP specifies a Stainless (steel) 1911 but he doesn’t specify if he is interested in a full length (5” slide) or Commander length (4.25” slide). Nor does he specify if he is looking for a lightweight frame or a steel frame. You can get a stainless steel slide on a stainless steel frame or an aluminum alloy frame.

Ian has come out rather strongly in favor of a steel frame and a 5” slide. I agree with Ian with one caveat; if the gun will be used as a concealed carry weapon, the lightweight frame and Commander length slide is advantageous.

If the gun is not intended to be a full time carry weapon, then yes – a steel frame is the way to go.

 

[Mitty38]

$300 + State Sales Tax, + Federal Excise Tax + any transfer fees.....

Checked on it today. New gun with plastic case, gun lock, cleaning tool, 2 mags, instructions, take down tool. 1 year Warranty walk in repairs honored and done at the store, and Instructions.
Very roughly made gun.

$328 out the door. Mostly State tax. Think like 7 or 8 bucks of that was the fee to run the background check.

Still not a bad deal if you just wanted to go bang.
Looked functional. Heavy recoil spring and a bit gritty on the slide compared to the others. But tight.
Cerakote on the feed ramp. But appeared very functional. Lousy thin welded on sights. Magazines looked to be kinda cheaply made.
Trigger was better, (shorter pull, crisper), then any other stock pistol I know of. With 2 exceptions, All the other 1911's I have looked at and a Beretta FS when in single action.
Sales would not let me personally take down. After much inquiring by a couple other customers, and I. He had the ,"Smith" come out and take one down for us. Looked like forged and machined where it counts. But moulded parts, any where they could get away with it.
No fitting at all, except where absolutely nessesary. Safety which I believe is very important on an SA semi auto gun, was hard to work and did not have a defined "click".
It was recommended per factory instructions to put 500 rounds thru it while liberally oiled, to break it in cleaning between every 100 rounds. So basically Shoot it till it loosen up and works right.
Would I buy it now, no.
But if I had another and just wanted it to bang around on maybe. Kinda reminded me of High Point. Or an Older Russian made gun. Ugly but functional.


However they did have a nice used Wilson combat long slide, used Steel Frame, with a lot of holster wear. And some superficial scratches. That was smooth as silk, the slide only slightly wiggly, and Novac sights. No box. With one 8 round Wilson Combat magazine that looked new. On consignment, because a fellow brought in for a barrel crown , and slide work, and spring kit.
Then did not have the money to pay. Came to $656 after tax. Just about a hundred out of my reach.

 

[Mitty38]

Going ALL the way back to the first post:

"....We (my son and I) want a true Colt 1911 in stainless steel. Having and enjoying a 1911….. [it] has been on my bucket list..... "

Many people on this thread (including me) have attempted to dissuade the OP from buying a new Colt or at least entice him to explore some of the 1911 clones.
The OP specifies a Stainless (steel) 1911 but he doesn’t specify if he is interested in a full length (5” slide) or Commander length (4.25” slide). Nor does he specify if he is looking for a lightweight frame or a steel frame. You can get a stainless steel slide on a stainless steel frame or an aluminum alloy frame.

Ian has come out rather strongly in favor of a steel frame and a 5” slide. I agree with Ian with one caveat; if the gun will be used as a concealed carry weapon, the lightweight frame and Commander length slide is advantageous.

If the gun is not intended to be a full time carry weapon, then yes – a steel frame is the way to go.

Ye the long slide is something I never gave thought to.
The only reason for Stainless steel desire, is I live in a swamp. My yard is squishy most of the time.
Even cared for guns, unless seals in a case with some kind of moisture control develope rust over time. So ease of care.
But all is debatable. That is why I posted it here. Because I need input before the decision.
I value your opinion and others here greatly. So many divers points of view, but unlike other places you fellows base yours on experience. Not on the latest blog.
Plus and minuses from the real world.
This is going to be a major purchase on my budget so want to be informed well, first.
We may disagree or back and forth a bit. Or even give a jab to once in a while.
But I always leave with something useful.
Thanks Petrol. Especially for when you reflect on others posts, it helps things sink in better when in learning mode.
Ps to repeat and expand on a previous statement, as to help other understand my intentions for the 1911.
This gun will... never ....be used as a self defence weapon. Unless it happens to be in my hand preventing me from drawing out my Ruger.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Stainless Steel makes a lot of sense for a handgun.

In the early days of stainless-steel semi-auto pistols, there were some problems with stainless-on-stainless galling. Manufacturers have since learned how to prevent that galling and stainless-steel pistols now function for the life of the pistol without any galling issues. This was largely accomplished by carefully choosing the right alloys and often different alloys for the slide & frame. The rust resistance of stainless steel is a huge benefit for a handgun.

Ruger has tremendous experience in casting stainless steel and uses that process to reduce the manufacturing costs. The Ruger SR1911 uses a lot of cast steel parts that require minimal machining to achieve their final form. This allows Ruger to put quality where they need it, without driving the total price up.

Kimber uses forgings and machining to make the larger parts but uses a lot of MIM [metal injected molding] to make many of the small parts. This allows them to keep costs down.

I wouldn’t be concerned about purchasing a used 1911 pistol as long as it was made by a good manufacturer and was in good condition. Buying used is a good way to reduce your cost.

There are a lot of options out there and some of them are good values.

 

[Mitty38]

The Ruger is one I have not looked at yet. Looks like I need to go to the Ruger dealer in Alliance while I am there and have a look see. I mean I do trust my life to a Ruger. But never bought anything by them that was not meant to be a tool. So they have proven to at least be reliable.

I almost fell in love with the Wilson Combat but it was just out of my reach.
I really liked the extended mag button and the easy to work, well defined safety on that gun. Plus my hand seemed to self position on that gun the way it was set up.
For lack of knowledge, I will say the safety tang thing on the rear of the frame. Under the beaver tail was different and some how just forced my hand to the perfect position.


Stainless is pretty much an unmovable object in my requirement list.
But then again you never know.
But aluminum or polymer is not an option for me.

 

[fiver]

i'd probably work something on that Wilson.
1. it's in jail
2. the guy only needs to pay off what he owes them and make a little something. offer 150 less and dicker the other 50.
3. lay away.... give yourself 90 days to make up the other hundred.
4. your gonna drop a hundred bucks in gas 'lookin around'.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

i'd probably work something on that Wilson.
1. it's in jail
2. the guy only needs to pay off what he owes them and make a little something. offer 150 less and dicker the other 50.
3. lay away.... give yourself 90 days to make up the other hundred.
4. your gonna drop a hundred bucks in gas 'lookin around'.

100%!!!

 

[Bret4207]

No experience, but the Turks are importing a bunch of shotguns now, the break open ones I've looked at seem pretty good and I don't hear bad reviews of them. Been meaning to drop by Academy and pick up one of the little Yildiz .410 singles for a while now.

How hard can it be to produce a decent gun with a solid design like this?

Back in the early 2000's my oldest boy had a Charles Daly pump action shotgun made in Turkey. Solid little gun. Never had a hiccup with it. The finish was all camo over the steel and the stock was plastic. Perfect for a kid. I think I paid maybe $150 brand new.

I don't turn my nose up at anything until I've handled it, shot it and given it a chance. I own some Stars and Astras that are supposed to be junk according to some! They aren't. I've seen some Remingtons and Winchesters that were barely able to function right out of the box though!

 

[Bret4207]

I have a PD, don't shoot it much, buit it works fine. Sure is light for a .45. Always thought the Star Fire was a better option for a small gun in a big caliber, never had the opportunity and money come together at the same time, though.

Starfire was a nice rig. Handled a few, never had the moola to buy.

 

[Bret4207]

i'd probably work something on that Wilson.
1. it's in jail
2. the guy only needs to pay off what he owes them and make a little something. offer 150 less and dicker the other 50.
3. lay away.... give yourself 90 days to make up the other hundred.
4. your gonna drop a hundred bucks in gas 'lookin around'.

BEST POST IN THE THREAD!

 

[Bret4207]

I don't know what you're going to end up with Emmitt, but I'd have no qualms about buying used. I'm not the worlds biggest Colt fan- period. Not after about 1970 anyway. Be patient, watch your pennies, you'll find something.

And kindly stop talking about a "bucket list"!!! That's depressing as heck!

 

[Mitty38]

Well I don't want to buy the second one I looked at. So I walked off on that one. High volume shop so I do not see getting that gun. It will probably not be there next time I am driving 30 miles in that direction. But still have not checked out the locals.
Going to the big town of Alliance today, for wife's yearly OBGYN. 20 miles in the opposite direction.
The mall closed down so Dunham's sporting goods is closed. That was one of my favorite places to looky loo at stuff.
But they have 2 small gun shops and 2 pawns I can check out while there.

 

[david s]

In 1911's I've a single S&W from when they first built them, a single Dan Wesson in 10mm, a single Sig 1911 and three Kimbers one in 10mm and two 45 ACP's. One of the Kimbers is a Commander sized gun with an aluminum frame. All are stainless otherwise and have pretty decent triggers. I bought the S&W sort of on a whim, just the novelty of a S&W 1911. But it's a solid well put together pistol and all metal no plastic. It does have a passive firing pin safety, but the firing pin safety doesn't interfere with the trigger pull at all. The Dan Wesson is very solid and smooth feeling. As far as I know the Dan Wesson doesn't use an MIM parts. No firing pin safety. I've only put about 250 rounds thru this one so far but no issues with it. Oddly enough the Sig is the smoothest feeling of the lot and the most accurate. The only drawback to the Sig is the slides a different shape/profile and may or may not fit a standard 1911 holster, depends on the holster. It too has the grip safety activated firing pin safety. The three Kimbers do have MIM parts, but this hasn't been an issue with them. They also have plastic mainspring housings. The plastic never was a problem, but all three-mainspring housing have also been replaced. They also have firing pin safeties off the grip safety. My 10mm Kimber went back to them for warranty work. Kimber paid the shipping both ways and fixed the problem. No hassles at all with Kimber warranty. Both 45's have been fine. The Star PD is actually a pretty decent pistol. A good friend from 40 years ago had one and we shoot the heck out of it with gun show reloads. It was a tough reliable little pistol. The Firestar isn't as good as the PD. The Firestar is a seriously chunky little pistol and square where it should be rounded in more than a few areas. The PD has been out of print for a while though. I would be looking a good used Kimber or Sig if on a limited budget. 1911's are sort of like AR 15's now everybody and their uncle makes them, and prices are all over the place.

 

[Mitty38]

Was thinking about building one like I did with the AR and the Glock.
But after investigation I found out I can't just do that proper for a 1911. On the kitchen table with a small file, a hammer, a set of punches, a vice, and a few standards automotive tools. So decided against that route for the 1911. It requires a bit more in equipment then I have.

Looked at a Colt Competition from the 70's today.

Also a few New Colts tuned by Bench Mark Precision.
Was told by the dealer that many competitors around here, that run New Colts, send them direct to Bench Mark before ever pulling the trigger. They had purchase a handful of New Colts, then had them Bench Mark enhanced. In different configurations. Talk about all ducks in a row. No gaps, perfectly fitted, perfect blueing.
Very little wiggle in the slide, almost unperceptible, but smooth and so natural to operate.
The trigger did not go off when I put my finger on it with my standard take up pressure, but felt like no take up. As soon as I thought about shooting it just did. Amazing, I never felt a trigger like that. Where it did not accidently go off with trigger finger on recoil and requisition, but just instinctively fired when you though about it and started the back pull. Scared me a bit at first but after 5 rounds. I was like this is so cool.
Two out his selection had felt like they were part of my hand.

I got to shoot one that fit me, that they had kept aside for range use. Got 2 loaded magazines to run thru it.
WOW, but a $2500 to $4000 price tag.
Well now at least I know what top Quality is like. That way I can make a better informed decision on value for the dollar.

 

[Bret4207]

In 1911's I've a single S&W from when they first built them, a single Dan Wesson in 10mm, a single Sig 1911 and three Kimbers one in 10mm and two 45 ACP's. One of the Kimbers is a Commander sized gun with an aluminum frame. All are stainless otherwise and have pretty decent triggers. I bought the S&W sort of on a whim, just the novelty of a S&W 1911. But it's a solid well put together pistol and all metal no plastic. It does have a passive firing pin safety, but the firing pin safety doesn't interfere with the trigger pull at all. The Dan Wesson is very solid and smooth feeling. As far as I know the Dan Wesson doesn't use an MIM parts. No firing pin safety. I've only put about 250 rounds thru this one so far but no issues with it. Oddly enough the Sig is the smoothest feeling of the lot and the most accurate. The only drawback to the Sig is the slides a different shape/profile and may or may not fit a standard 1911 holster, depends on the holster. It too has the grip safety activated firing pin safety. The three Kimbers do have MIM parts, but this hasn't been an issue with them. They also have plastic mainspring housings. The plastic never was a problem, but all three-mainspring housing have also been replaced. They also have firing pin safeties off the grip safety. My 10mm Kimber went back to them for warranty work. Kimber paid the shipping both ways and fixed the problem. No hassles at all with Kimber warranty. Both 45's have been fine. The Star PD is actually a pretty decent pistol. A good friend from 40 years ago had one and we shoot the heck out of it with gun show reloads. It was a tough reliable little pistol. The Firestar isn't as good as the PD. The Firestar is a seriously chunky little pistol and square where it should be rounded in more than a few areas. The PD has been out of print for a while though. I would be looking a good used Kimber or Sig if on a limited budget. 1911's are sort of like AR 15's now everybody and their uncle makes them, and prices are all over the place.

The PD's roblem was cracking the slide/frame and parts made of unobtainium. The Firsestar was chunky STEEL and could take a crap load of punishment. But it was heavy as you note. Those contours were sexy in 1990, not so much today.

Love my PD, just afraid to shoot it much. That does remind me that I need to put the buffer in it I bought 18-20 years ago... which tells you how much I dare shoot it.