Fix my lube

[Chris C]

Ben, my lube is 50% Beeswax (topping wax), 40% Crisco and 10% Vaseline by weight. Ian previously mentioned I could add some Vaseline to my lube and make things better. Only I can't find the post where he suggested a percentage to add. How much Vaseline would you add to my lube to make it more usable until I can get a better lube in-house?

 

[RBHarter]

Found the 1 you were looking for.
20% net.

 

[RBHarter]

http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/danged-pinholes.1760/page-10#post-33182

 

[Chris C]

Thanks, much appreciated. Couldn't seem to find it.

 

[Ian]

Only for the powder type and charge weights where your lube was causing you problems as evidenced by your targets.

Every component we handloaders work with has a range of operation. Go outside it and you have issues. You found one situation where your lube didn't work so well because it was outside of the zone it liked. I never could have told you that beforehand (not that I had any idea what lube you were using), it's one of the things you pick up as you go along. Note it and try something different.

I mentioned the beeswax/Vaseline lube because it will work for just about anything you can do with that rifle with smokeless powder and eliminate one big variable right off the bat.

Also, I didn't know you were using a Crisco lube when I made the 20% Vaseline recommendation. I didn't imagine it because so few people use Crisco in their lube formulas, Sorry about that, I should have asked. The problem isn't the Vaseline percentage here (but adding some will fix this problem with 99% of other basic wax lubes), it's the Crisco, way to much fluid film strength for the pressure of that particular load. You might do better to add Canola or Olive oil to your existing lube and bump the firmness back up with a little extra beeswax, but really I'd just start with the bw/Vaseline and move on to the other challenges.

 

[KHornet]

I shot Beeswax/Vaseline/crisco for a number of years back in the 60's, and it server me well.

My mix was about 50/25/25 with the addition of about 2 teaspoons full of fine graphite for
an old coffee pot full. Never used exact measurements back then, and weights were approximate
but if memory serves me right was about a 5-6 pound batch, and I pan lubed, and cake cut then.

It served me well till I could afford commercial lube.

Paul

 

[Chris C]

Only for the powder type and charge weights where your lube was causing you problems as evidenced by your targets.

Every component we handloaders work with has a range of operation. Go outside it and you have issues. You found one situation where your lube didn't work so well because it was outside of the zone it liked. I never could have told you that beforehand (not that I had any idea what lube you were using), it's one of the things you pick up as you go along. Note it and try something different.

I mentioned the beeswax/Vaseline lube because it will work for just about anything you can do with that rifle with smokeless powder and eliminate one big variable right off the bat.

Also, I didn't know you were using a Crisco lube when I made the 20% Vaseline recommendation. I didn't imagine it because so few people use Crisco in their lube formulas, Sorry about that, I should have asked. The problem isn't the Vaseline percentage here (but adding some will fix this problem with 99% of other basic wax lubes), it's the Crisco, way to much fluid film strength for the pressure of that particular load. You might do better to add Canola or Olive oil to your existing lube and bump the firmness back up with a little extra beeswax, but really I'd just start with the bw/Vaseline and move on to the other challenges.

Thanks, Ian. Think I'll try the 50/50 Beeswax and Vaseline to start.

 

[Pistolero]

Hmm. Why not pick up some well respected lube like Ben's Red, Felix, or NRA 50-50 or LBT blue and
eliminate a variable - or at least reduce it? I never quite got the idea of saving $1/5000 rds on lube and maybe
causing lots of problems with accuracy, leading, etc. Lube is pretty darned cheap, and once you have
a really good load as a baseline with commercial or well tested lubes, then starting a quest for your
own lube formula would seem to make more sense.

OTOH, I guess some folks are more adventurous than I am. I am kinda lazy on lubes, pick one that has
worked for others and go on. Maybe just not enough curiosity.

Bill

 

[Ian]

He bought some BAC to try. The others are very difficult to make for a beginner, and though an excellent lube, LBT won't be any better for this particular little experiment than simple 50/50 bw/Vaseline. If Chris makes his own bw/crisco/vaseline lube it would be simple enough for him to make a very small batch of it without the crisco, seemed the shortest means to an end to me. Some of the other homemade lubes may contain more metal soap or polybutene than needed to flow early.

 

[Chris C]

Hmm. Why not pick up some well respected lube like Ben's Red, Felix, or NRA 50-50 or LBT blue and
eliminate a variable - or at least reduce it? I never quite got the idea of saving $1/5000 rds on lube and maybe
causing lots of problems with accuracy, leading, etc. Lube is pretty darned cheap, and once you have
a really good load as a baseline with commercial or well tested lubes, then starting a quest for your
own lube formula would seem to make more sense.

OTOH, I guess some folks are more adventurous than I am. I am kinda lazy on lubes, pick one that has
worked for others and go on. Maybe just not enough curiosity.

Bill, the only reason I've been making my lube all these years is because I was told money couldn't buy a lube like this! Just goes to show you what little I know.

He bought some BAC to try. The others are very difficult to make for a beginner, and though an excellent lube, LBT won't be any better for this particular little experiment than simple 50/50 bw/Vaseline. If Chris makes his own bw/crisco/vaseline lube it would be simple enough for him to make a very small batch of it without the crisco, seemed the shortest means to an end to me. Some of the other homemade lubes may contain more metal soap or polybutene than needed to flow early.

Yup, I can mix anything from any recipe on the market. Indeed, I did order BAC and it arrived today. Do you suggest I use it straight or thin it was something like Olive oil or Vaseline?

On a side note, I went out to the shop last night and made a 7oz batch of 50/50.................only in my eagerness, I made it 50% of "my" lube and 50% Vaseline. I even went so far as to lube the 30 bullets for the next test before I looked over on the bench and saw the small block of Bee topping wax I had intended to use. DUH!!!!! Oh well, it's only 7 oz and a little time. Might go ahead and shoot them anyway just to see what change it would make. They sure are slippery!

 

[Pistolero]

I know Ian knows FAR, FAR more about lubes than I do. I tend to look for shortcuts in areas where I have
no expertise. That was my only point. If you have some BAC to try, that should show whether the other lube
is a big issue. Once you have a lube which you can show isn't causing issues, you can sort out what BESIDES
lube is the issue, and them perhaps circle back and try some different lubes.

Best wishes for success.

Bill

 

[Chris C]

Thanks, Bill. That's what Ian told me and it made sense. Get the lube out of the way first.

 

[Pistolero]

I haven't used BAC, but given it's reputation, I would think that trying it unmodified would be
a first step. Ian may have a better idea.

Bill

 

[Chris C]

I believe Ian said to mix it with Vaseline...........but I can't find the post to verify the amount of Vaseline.

 

[KHornet]

For what ever it is worth, when I tried Ben's Red, and BLL, I went to same
entirely.

Paul

 

[Ian]

Take this ONLY in the context of your 4198 load in the mid-teens peak PSI......in other situations with higher or faster peak pressure and velocity, or cleaner-burning loads, a more stiff and "dry" lube will be fine:

The BAC I have is very stiff and doesn't wet the bore at low pressure. Neither does it clear out of the bore well when the powder isn't burning well. Carnauba wax is very tacky and exacerbates the fouling purge issue in this instance. I detest Alox on prinicple, but that's just me. The lube tames down and becomes a lot more versatile for low-pressure loads when a little Vaseline or even automatic transmission fluid is added. With the dirty-burning loads, 20% Vaseline added will be more than enough to soften the lube and get it to flow better at lower pressure and temperature...and clear out of the bore. Using less as I mentioned, lubing only the lower groove, may also help with this excess lube accumulation/purge cycle. If you were using a faster powder or pushing the 4198 load up to a lot more pressure, this problem should decrease on its own and straight BAC may be fine. However, 50/50 beeswax/Vaseline will eliminate any doubt that you have a lube problem.

You will need to address your powder burn rate next, as evidenced by your group dispersion and particularly your huge ES and SD swings.

 

[Brad]

Notice Ian mentioned temp. Some lubes give cold barrel flyers as temps get below 50° F.
Watch for stuff like that. Adding Vaseline or a little ATF can help reduce that tendency but you then must watch out for overly wet conditions as temps get above 80°F.

 

[fiver]

what might help you envision what's happening is to take a quarter of a pea sized piece of your Crisco and a small piece of sheet metal or a little mirror.
rub the Crisco between your thumb and fore finger.

now push your finger down and across the glass or metal. [note where you lose that glide feeling]
rub your thumb and finger together again, don't add any more lube [note the place again]
now push your finger across the plate again without the rubbing [note where you lose that feeling]
and do it again without the rubbing [see anything happening here?]
imagine adding more each time.

 

[Ian]

We have officially entered the Esoteric Zone

After a while you can tell by feel how lube will work in a particular application, or what needs to change to meet a certain need. Acquiring that feel doesn't happen overnight.

At low powder pressure with a relatively tough alloy, the bullet can smear lube the whole length of the barrel and ride on top of it. Sounds good, right? Problem is that layer of lube varies shot-to-shot, and as the barrel heats up it can thin out and take a load from ok groups to wild flyers as the bore condition changes, bullet friction changes, and as a result the pressure curve changes.

The name of the game with lube has pretty much been nailed down by a friend of ours (Pete) by attaining a state he called CORE, or Consistency Of Residuals Encountered. Getting that first, cold-barrel shot to last, hot shot, in any weather, with no cleaning during strings, totally depends on the friction and residual powder/lube fouling in the bore remaining consistent overall. A very tall order indeed, but not so bad if you stick to a ~50° temperature window and formulate your lube for the pressures it will see.

 

[Brad]

Pete is the only guy I know who loads a few rounds with a different charge to overcome cold barrel flyers. Changing the charge lets those first couple rounds go into the group. And that was at temps well below 0°F.

And esoteric zone? More like the twilight zone. I know the lube stuff was like a cookbook to my wallet.