Fix my lube

[Ian]

WHEW! So as long as the rings around the bullet hole are absent or the same color, all is well? Is that my goal at this point?

It is just one thing that has to be right. Yes, I'd fix that first because your targets are telling us it is so very far out of whack and will stand in the way of further meaningful load development with the 4198.

Lube can fail in the particular system you provide for it in a lot of different ways, CORE is just one, though probably at the top of the list for shooting groups.

 

[fiver]

I think you got it.
you'll notice the groups changing some as you see the holes change color.

I prefer clean holes and no to a small lube star.
I try to shoot clean and nearly dry barrels.

if you think back to my little 'experiment' on page one it will tie back into your velocity variations from the other thread.
Ian explained it fairly well on that same page.

I will say it again.
the lube either all goes or it all stays to the target.
either way it's what it leaves behind in the barrel that affects what happens next.

 

[Chris C]

t is just one thing that has to be right. Yes, I'd fix that first because your targets are telling us it is so very far out of whack and will stand in the way of further meaningful load development with the 4198.

Lube can fail in the particular system you provide for it in a lot of different ways, CORE is just one, though probably at the top of the list for shooting groups.

Okay, that's what I'm working on for this first test. I'm going to shoot 23 10-shot targets and walk to the target after each shot and number them. (Or maybe I could hire a neighbor I don't much care for to just stand beside the target and do the marking for me!? )

I think you got it.
you'll notice the groups changing some as you see the holes change color.

I prefer clean holes and no to a small lube star.
I try to shoot clean and nearly dry barrels.

if you think back to my little 'experiment' on page one it will tie back into your velocity variations from the other thread.
Ian explained it fairly well on that same page.

I will say it again.
the lube either all goes or it all stays to the target.
either way it's what it leaves behind in the barrel that affects what happens next.

fiver, that's what I'm hoping for..........smaller groups and I get the lube worked out. I've always been told the lube star was a good thing because it showed the bullet took the lube all the way to the bore. Is that wrong? When I first started shooting, I cleaned all my barrels like new so that each time I went out, I had a "properly prepared" barrel. Then all my friends started screaming at me because the rifle I was shooting at the time was fully capable of excellent accuracy which I wasn't getting. The all told me to try and never clean the barrel. After about 500 or 600 rounds the groups started shrinking until they were small enough to at least rate and worthy of practicing with. Clean barrel or dirty barrel? Which is it? Never knew lube was this important, for sure. Can't believe all you guys have taught me so far. Trying to be a sponge on this end and just hope I can soak it all up.

 

[Rick]

Clean the bore to like new condition? Well, if ya have to I guess. I competed in long range handgun for over 30 years, mostly 200 meter revolver and I learned a long time ago to leave the bore alone. Would take a bare minimum of 50 rounds through it just to get the sight settings to start returning to normal. I did religiously keep the cylinder well cleaned and properly oiled after each match. The revolver was shooting quite well meaning the bore was quite happy just like it is.

 

[Chris C]

Like I said, Rick, I "used" to clean my barrels that way. But I've got a 115 year old Marlin Lever Action 1893 in .38-55 that hasn't been cleaned in 500/600 shots and I treat it like I used to my smoking pipes. Never, ever, never ever, absolutely never clean the cake out of pipe because you'll ruin it. (I learned that lesson the hard way when I was about 6 years old. I was so proud of myself when I cleaned all that "gunk" out of my Grandpa's pipes. As I remember, he wasn't very happy with me!)

 

[S Mac]

I would think it would be a good idea to run a patch down the bore between the different formulations, for a relatively constant starting point.

 

[Ian]

I keep my gun clean and my rifles dirty.

Correct lube and load combo precludes ever needing or benefiting from cleaning a rifle barrel. We are trying to get you to understand the relationship between CORE and lube. After 10-20 shots with a lube better suited for what you're doing and the barrel should settle down again. Or you can clean it with Ed's Red and a bronze brush until it's squeaky clean, smear a little of your 50/50 beeswax/Vaseline lube on a patch and prep the bore with that, then one dry patch and after that only put bullets down it.

 

[Chris C]

I keep my gun clean and my rifles dirty.

Correct lube and load combo precludes ever needing or benefiting from cleaning a rifle barrel. We are trying to get you to understand the relationship between CORE and lube. After 10-20 shots with a lube better suited for what you're doing and the barrel should settle down again. Or you can clean it with Ed's Red and a bronze brush until it's squeaky clean, smear a little of your 50/50 beeswax/Vaseline lube on a patch and prep the bore with that, then one dry patch and after that only put bullets down it.

"Gotcha" on the first part.

On the second part, you never responded when I "told on myself" about taking 50% of my lube and adding 50% Vaseline. I even went so far as lubing the 30 bullets I'm going to use.......but that was before I noticed the original piece of pure Bees topping wax I'd set aside to make the lube and realized my mistake. It's awful slippery. Should I use or toss it and make some real 50/50?

 

[Ian]

I mentioned about three or four times that I thought you'd do better with 50/50, but you keep going down other rabbit holes....

 

[Chris C]

Nope, I don't. I made an honest but stupid mistake. I'll toss it out and make some 50/50. Thanks.

 

[fiver]

the lube gets to the muzzle one way or the other.
it might be blown off the boolit and down the barrel then pushed there by the front drive band, but it gets there.
that is a side affect of the soft lubes.
it's also okay in a revolver for some reason they do better with the soft and sticky lubes, but even there you can go too far.
trust me you don't want to tear down a type 99 tokarov looking for lube slime more than once.

I think eventually every body that messes around with lube starts looking for a silly putty like consistency with a thixotropic nature.
some prefer a hardness on either side of that but it's always close to the mushy malleable non slimy feeling silly putty has.

 

[Pistolero]

Danger indeed, Brad. A lot of fun for people who want to experiment, but a rabbit hole for
someone trying to get a load up and running by the shortest path.

Bill

 

[Chris C]

Okay, Ian, I know I've been a real pain in the patoot, but I think I'm on the path. I melted down my "mistake" batch and tossed it in the trash. Melted down all of my original wax and poured it into a tupperware bowl to give to friends who use it. Made a pound of 50/50 and have poured 50 bullets to get them lubed. This 50/50 is mighty soft. Of course I've not felt it solidified yet. We'll see. It's in the mail, so as soon as I get my .378" expander I'll load 'em up and send 'em downrange to start the test. How many do you think I need to send downrange to answer the question of whether my problems were caused by the lube or not?

 

[Brad]

Never throw a lube away. In time they can be altered to work for something else. Fiver has melted multiple lubes together to make a large batch of what he calls "Homo lube". He has good luck with it too.
I have 20 or so different lube experiments in zip lock bags right now. Some day they may get melted together to see what I get.
You are re wise to let the lube sit over night to see what you have. I find they tend to stiffen a bit over night.

 

[Chris C]

Thanks, Brad. After Ian's "Dump it or add about 20% Vaseline to it" comment about my lube, used on the targets I showed, I'm hesitant to ever melt it again. I'd rather give it to someone who thinks it's the "cat's meow".

 

[Chris C]

Walked to the road to get the mail this afternoon and found the neck expander in the mailbox. So I've sized all the brass. I popped the bullets out of the lube and was surprised to find it felt harder than my original beeswax,Crisco and Vaseline lube. I imagine as soon as heat from the powder and friction heat is applied to all that Vaseline in the 50/50 I made last night, it'll get mighty thin and slick mighty quick. I plan on getting them all loaded tomorrow and will send 'em downrange on Monday or Tuesday, weather permitting.

 

[Ian]

You can adjust the viscosity by adding more Vaseline or more wax as needed. It should be firm enough to stay in the groove well but will liquify quickly under pressure. Inside the barrel it won't be as slippery or gooey as your Crisco lube, which you should notice on your targets with the 4198 powder.

Brad knows about lube viscosity and sitting, especially with wax/grease lubes you never know what you have until at least a day or sometimes a week later, when the oil, wax, and metal soap matrix have had a chance to normalize.

 

[Chris C]

Well, Ian, I'm anxious to see the results early next week when I send these downrange. The wax block I poked my bullets out of may have seemed harder, but I already know the viscosity will be lower because of what I've learned here on the forum so far. Can't tell you how much I appreciate your (and everyone elses) patience with my "newbieness"!!!!! I'm not only hoping these 30 rounds will hit the targets with no black rings, but hoping that happens so I can go to the next test. I've been slugging along for too long with seemingly no improvement or hope that what I'd do next would actually accomplish anything. I feel blessed that my good friend suggested I try this site. I've learned more about alloys and lubes here in the couple of weeks I've been here on the forum than all the time I've been shooting.

 

[Ian]

Chris, the 4198 may never prove to be the powder that gets you where you want to be, particularly unless you adjust your seating depth and keep increasing the charge weight and pressure, but remember what I said about this being a learning curve. Unless you're extremely lucky, you won't stumble across your "ideal" load unless you first understand how to reach it. Part of that understanding comes from learning through firsthand experience what does not work, why it does not work, and what effects you can apply at the loading bench to achieve your goals.

 

[Rick]

Part of that understanding comes from learning through firsthand experience what does not work, why it does not work, and what effects you can apply at the loading bench to achieve your goals.

Exactly, yes. This is why I always stress keeping detailed notes including on loads that didn't work. Over time with enough notes on various firearms, calibers, loads there is a wealth of information to draw on and it isn't in any loading manual.
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