How do you cast for your hunting bullets?

[burbank.jung]

Do you use Lyman #2 or do you cast with an unknown alloy with a desired bhn? Do you pour into a FN bullet mold with a specific alloy or do you you water drop and then remove the tempering from the tip by submerging the base into - say - ice water while heating the temp. I read in an African hunting forum that one caster test loads his cast bullets for accuracy and then adds lead until the printed groups start to spread.

 

[Brad]

It depends. I will do things for rent for say a 2200 fps 30-30 old than a 1400 fps 45-70 load.

What game? Deer are very different from say moose or big bears. How much penetration do you need? A 30-30 might do better with a little expansion but a FN 45-70 needs no expansion to do really well.

HP or solid? RN or FN? I can assure you that HP bullets for hunting need to be balanced for Hp size, alloy, and velocity. I almost lost a deer hit with a 350 gr HP in my 45-70 fired at 1700 fps. Blew the nose clean off and a .45 diameter bullet that is maybe .35 long doesn’t penetrate for shit after hitting a bone.

I generally use the same alloy as always and pick my shots. I tend to wait for a nice broadside or quartering shot where I can be certain of easy access to the vitals. My allow is nothing near Lyman #2, that stuff is too speedy for me. I use range scrap in the 1.75 Sb to .5 Sn range. I can heat treat it if I feel the need but generally don’t.

I can assure you that many of us used widely differing methods but all get good results. No single answer here.

 

[Winelover]

Depending on caliber, Lyman #2 is pretty hard.

For my pistol or carbine hunting loads, I use 20-1 or 30-1 alloy with gas checked bullets to reduce the chance of leading at higher velocities. I don't powder coat.

 

[Missionary]

We hunt river bottoms. Our max range is 35 yards. So with that we use 50/50 (WW-scrap). 950-1100 fps is plenty. Corn Crunchers (200 lbs+) are what we expect. I use a revolver in 414 SM Dan Wesson or 45 Colt or 475 Linebaugh. Or any of our flintlocks caliber 54 and up.
But usually a 54# recurve wood bow out to 20 yards. The old whistling death.

 

[Ian]

No good general answer to this question. Caliber, impact velocity, bullet shape, and type of game are necessary data points at a bare minimum.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

No good general answer to this question. Caliber, impact velocity, bullet shape, and type of game are necessary data points at a bare minimum.

100%.

Impact velocity
The critter Im Shooting
Type of bullet
Range (to a degree)

All things I think of when choosing a alloy. Largely Impact velocity and desired penetration.

CW

 

[RBHarter]

A 50/50 250 gr 454424 NOE version at 1000 fps at 5-47 yd will run right through 2' of hog breaking ribs and cutting half moons in scapulas leaving about a .550 hole in the off side shield .

Having lived my life with a 1000 ftlb at 100 yd I just build every rifle load to meet that as a goal and hold out for a half inch hole . The bullets in my avatar are a 200 gr 30 cal that didn't make the 1000# by about 80 fps MV but they are .610 and weigh 196-198 gr . The trap was powdered clay .

It's like cleaning up a shop that's just been worked in and cluttered up until the floor and benches are all but lost . You just start there and work around until it looks like a shop again .

Start with something that will get you what you need for numbers then adjust to get what you need for terminal effect .
Remember your shooting a monolithic solid that can be manipulated to expand , shatter , splatter ,or run true through with designs from hemisphere to WC in 22-50 cal .
Lots of bison were killed with plain lead from 18kpsi cartridge and MLs .

 

[Bret4207]

Unless you are shooting through a northbound moose from the south end, I can not think of any use for something as hard as #2 in hunting. FP bullet, straight COWW (as long as it casts good, if not add a little tin) and go to town.

 

[burbank.jung]

I think more care should be taken to cast rifle bullets. You want an accurate bullet. Do you start with pure lead and add tin or do you use range scrap, find the bhn, and possibly add tin to ensure a better chance that your bullet tip will expand?

 

[Brad]

I start with range scrap and if it shoots well enough I stop there.
How accurate do you need when hunting where the ranges run under 50 yards?

Don't overthink this stuff.

 

[RicinYakima]

I think more care should be taken to cast rifle bullets. You want an accurate bullet. Do you start with pure lead and add tin or do you use range scrap, find the bhn, and possibly add tin to ensure a better chance that your bullet tip will expand?

You want an accurate bullet? Cast linotype. You want a hunting bullet? Depends upon size. My 50/70 Sharps will dump anything from bison on down. Doesn't matter what the alloy is, it will go down.

If you are going to hunt game with cast bullets, you have to think like the British in the 1880's. Where do you have to put the solid bullet to get to the vitals? Cast bullets will never be like jacketed modern bullets.

 

[RBHarter]

Start with WW . Settle on a test media . Work a load . Shoot the test media at 25 and 25 yd past as far as you expect to shoot on game so 25&125 I guess if you get 125-150% of original dia at 125 and 75% or more of start weight in one piece at 25 you're done . If it doesn't then you adjust probably with pure lead and tin until it does .

The other option is to cast WW pick a 32/8mm with a 65% dia meplat and let em' rip .

I ran numbers for a new bullet in a new cartridge. We don't all agree on the best set of numbers to use , I fall back on 1000 ftlb at 100 yd because that was the minimum number that I had for 38 yr . I have an idea as to what alloys I need for a particular pressure window and impact speed . I don't care what a .170 FP 62 gr HP does after it hits , in the 222 it's going 2400 fps on departure and most likely a 50# dog is as big as the game is getting with it on purpose anyway. I use 75/24.5/.5 more or less WW/20-1/cu in the 6.8 and 7×6.8 SPC it doesn't expand but the .09 FP on the NOE leaves a 3/4" exit on a pithy pine log of 16-18" at 65 yd . That one meets the 1k@100 and I don't believe I'd rely on a catchers glove . 2200 MV 131.0 ready to load . Pithy pine ain't meat but it's it's wet pulp and not far off hit the offside shoulder and the Forest prince is certain to abdicate the throne .

This 7×57 with a 179 gr 7mm-168 SP and the NOE .278 BC says 1900 fps MV is plenty to reach the 1k@100 the alloy I chose is w/o cu and is hours after casting even water dropped soft . I went that way , 60/40 WW/roof jacks , because the long shot will be 100 yd maybe and I needed or thought I needed to fatten up the nose . I have about a .090 meplat after sizing and plenty of land contact . Long ago used the same alloy source metal for a 30 cal , not quite double dia , but near zero weight loss at 50 yd into powdered clay with a 1600 MV . The 8.5 twist and alloy just wouldn't go over 1800 and group in the 06' and 1600 is all I could get out of the x39 with the length restrictions. In any case close to double dia is a 1/2" hole through the pump and bellows space . My concern and it will be tested is that it'll splash instead of drill at 20 yd .

For a 30 cal I have the 311-165 RD with it's 70% meplat (or something close) 2000 fps MV is easy in 30-30 and 06' and I only need it to stay together long enough to get to the off side . It's almost a WC it's going to create a lot of damage whether it's "hydrostatic" shock or not . ACWW .

35 cal is the next step my The Load in a 358 Win is completely over kill for whitetail but I'd whack a bear or a 4-500# hog with confidence at 150-175 yd and only sweat the holdover about as long as it takes to break the sear . 35-250 @2100 fps WCWW + 10% purish or ACWW .

45 Colts 454424@1050 , 45 Raptor 350 gr basically a 458-340 Lee only .453-350 @1600 , or 45-70 with a 458193 or 45-500FN @1000-1100 . Yeah 50/50 works here the Colts held to 50 yd , the Raptor to 125 and the 45-70 to 200 primarily for hold over reasons with open sights . Expansion is available but with the pathetic 45 Colts capable of instant death on a calm 165# hog and a half inch hole cut in the exit shield after 26" and 2 ribs before it exited I feel pretty good about whatever alloy shoots well .

The upper end of these loads is 25 kpsi . Even the hot 222 and 6.8 are "only" about 42kpsi .

It's taken me most of 15 yr of digesting tomes , let alone volumes , of information and it's depressing to think about how many 1000s of rounds , and 100s of lbs of lead I've shot to get to this point .

Honestly you have reached the point of information load and book knowledge here and on CB and the book of faces where the only thing you can do to go any further is stuff some WW in a case and scrub it out of the barrel while you meditate on whether it was alloy or lube failure and what you need to fix to stop it .

The most valuable thing we can say now is ;
If it leads at the breach it ain't big enough.
If it leads at the muzzle it ain't got enough or the right lube .
If it leads in between there's a barrel effect like a roll stamp or choke .

Go load some 38 Special charges in 357 cases and work them up to full tilt 357 mag with Unique and a set of 50/50 and straight WW both water dropped . Do 5 each in about .3 gr steps with each alloy sized or not to a friction fit in the throats . You will learn volumes from this trial and volumes of what you've read will start to make sense .

"Sometimes you just have to throw away the book and fly the airplane" .

 

[fiver]

not really.

you can manipulate things some this way and some that way.
but your gonna give up some to get some.

want speed?
different design needed, unless your intended goal is a surface wound.

want some upset at the nose?
well your gonna have to work with a more malleable alloy, and probably a cup design.

here is what i do.

i use a rnfp design and a lever rifle.
aim for something important to keep life functions intact.
My BHN is about 10, and i go about 12-1400 fps.
a little this and a little that in the alloy, but not a lot of Tin.

my 30-30 etc.
a nice flat nose bullet such as the rcbs 30-150 FNGC.
1850-1950 fps.
a gas check.
water dropped.
same alloy as above.

now i got a third choice.
the mold is the lyman 180gr. spire point bullet.
i drilled and then polished out everything up to where the drive bands end.
that's .474 inches deep BTW.
then i cut 5/16'ths copper tubing to that .474 length and place them in the mold.
make sure everything is heated up, and pour the same alloy as above through the copper tube.

these i push to about 2300 fps in stuff like the Argie, or 7.7 Jap rifles.
you know when you hit something with these. you can hear it clearly from 150yds away.

if i gotta shoot further [and i usually do]
i use a 1.5% antimony core, and either a Sierra, corbins, or a Berger Jacket.
bond it all together, and leave almost no lead exposed at the tip.
these weigh from 152 to 172grs. and run from 2650 to almost 2900 fps.

anything else i just spend the 30 bucks and make up a hundred count box of ammo.

 

[RBHarter]

Like I said 15 yr and tomes . Some of the concepts just didn't make any sense until I worked in applied concept . The best thing I did which in terms of getting where I needed to go was the extremely long way to go was to take a bullet in the 06' and run it up as far as I could get groups with Red Dot then switch to Unique and switch to a medium rifle powder . Volumes made sense ......the leading continued , barrel choke . Fire lap got the choke out , then I just had to figure out how to get my numbers couldn't make it in that rifle without a lot heavier bullet . Trades . Soft alloys to get expansion, harder alloys to go fast , walk the razor in-between. There isn't a perfect solution......well maybe going up in caliber but even that resulted in diminished returns .

 

[Bret4207]

I think more care should be taken to cast rifle bullets. You want an accurate bullet. Do you start with pure lead and add tin or do you use range scrap, find the bhn, and possibly add tin to ensure a better chance that your bullet tip will expand?

Every bullet should be made with care. We all want them to be accurate. But you're talking hunting. So performance on impact is just as important as hitting right where you want to. Flat Nose of at least 28 cal, preferably larger, at moderate speeds. You don't need or want 3K fps with a cast bullet on game. You want that stuff, you need a jacket or you need a lot more experience under your belt as that gets into Masters Level cast shooting. Use a FN bullet of something near COWW alloy and figure 2200-ish MAX fps. 12-1400 will work fine, but hold over becomes an issue as ranges increase. Bhn is, again, not at all critical. If you want expansion, you want SOFTER, not harder. Thats why a FN of good diameter for the caliber tends to work. It's already giving you a good start on what any expansion would give you. If you want to go with a HP in hopes of expansion, then you have to find the balance point between enough speed/ductility and too much. It is NOT simply a matter of Bhn. I will advise you again, forget Bhn as a primary issue in this game, just get it out of your mind. You have to hit the vitals, that's a roughly 9" area, disregarding high neck shots. 1/4" groups are not necessary and in field shooting it's doubtful you will be ina steady enough position to discern the difference in a 1" group load or a 2.5" group load at cast bullet ranges. In a 30/31 cal, a nice FN design like the RCBS 180-FN at anywhere from 12-2200 stuck in the heart/lung area of an average sized Whitetail sized animal will likely give through and through penetration, or at least stop in the hide on the far side. It's about that simple. I've seen a dinky little FN 120 gr 32-20 bullet at 1400 fps travel more than a foot through a horse carcass and leave an impressive wound channel in somewhat dry tissue. The Flat Nose works.

 

[burbank.jung]

Thanks Bret. What is the average range for cast bullet hunters. I'd guess it is 50 yards or less for most. I'm reloading for a lot of guns and one is an sks. With its "as-issued" sights, I'm thinking that that round is 75 yards at most for hunting conditions so cast bullets are probably in the same range for most.

 

[Rick]

Why would a cast bullet be limited to 50 yards? I shot long range handgun competition for 35 years, only used cast bullets and we started at 50 meters, shot out to 200 meters.

 

[JustJim]

I'll leave the rifle discussion for those with more experience hunting with cast bullets in rifles. With handguns, a SWC or FN cast of clip-on wheel weight lead at an appropriate velocity seems to work fine. Unless I'm trying to finish a wounded animal (and often then) I aim through the chest cavity for the opposite shoulder.

 

[Brad]

Why would a cast bullet be limited to 50 yards? I shot long range handgun competition for 35 years, only used cast bullets and we started at 50 meters, shot out to 200 meters.

The bullet wasn’t limited, it was the reality of where I was hunting. I couldn’t get a shot thru the cover past about 50 yards so I loaded for where I was hunting.

I would feel comfortable with my 30-30 at 200 yds with cast.

Sadly, a truly great cast bullet cartridge is now almost obsolete- the 375 Win.

 

[richhodg66]

When I first started cast bullet deer hunting, I was told use 50/50 COWW to pure and add 2% of the weight of the COWW in tin. Then push said bullet 1800-2000 FPS. I followed that advice and it has worked wekk on deer in a few .30 calibers, one .32, a couple of .35s (.358 Winchester and .351 WSL) and even one 7mm (hollow pointed). Only recovered one bullet so far. I'm going to stick with what works.