7.65 Mauser musings

Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
I agree, Felix was treasure, the only honest to God rocket scientist I ever came in contact with. A fine man from all appearances and I miss his input and sense of humor.

I think, and I tend to dwell on the "why" of things too much, the reason the internet forums like this one work so well is partly because it's beginners and laymen writing in plain language that is usually absent the more technical terms that you might find in a more technical level book. Even the Lyman books from the 30's and 40's had some real fuzzy descriptions and confusing elements. Words like "obturation" and phrases like "gas cutting" or "leading" (especially) carry very little inherent meaning by themselves. Without fleshing out "leading"and IDing the other influencing factors and variables in the mix you get the idea that "Cast bullets lead the barrel." That's just not true, but without someone to bounce the statement off and to give some timely feedback in why it's not true, you just spin your wheels and go with the stock answer of, "It's because the lead is too soft.", which takes you to "HARDCAST" and it goes downhill from there. I'm just thankful I found "shooters.com" back in the late 90's and got in contact with people who could open my mind. Thanks guys!
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Leading is too often over complicated in itself . I'd bet 75% or more of the leaded barrels are just antimony wash .
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
Just a few thought on shotshell buffer as a cast bullet filler. This is for the lurkers who may be thinking "Grex, filler say what?".

1. With fast powders like 2400 and faster, I don't favor the use of any kind of filler.
2. With slower powders where the powder column fills at least 70% of the case, a buffer added to the top can be a benefit to get a more uniform and complete burn of the powder.
3. The buffer should be enough to produce a slightly compressed load to keep the buffer and the powder from mixing.
4. Grex (Winchester) is long gone from the market but Precision Shotshell Buffer (PSB) makes a good substitute.
5. Remember than any filled adds to the weight of the ejecta and that will show up in the pressures. Practically speaking, this means do not add filler to a developed load. Back off the powder charge a smidge and work back up.
6. Long ago, on another board, we had long protracted "filler wars" and I don't want to start that mess up again.
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
Fiver, I remember the days when you'd read something, not understand it and file it away. Years later you'd read something else, figure out what it meant and then the light would go on. Then came the internet. Good Old Felix Robbins cleared more stuff up for me in 2 or 3 months than 20 some years of reading had done!
Oh yes, many of us cast bullets and stumbled around in the dark for decades. The in the late 90's we found each other on the Internet, were able to compare note and some guys with great minds, helped up to step up our game and life has been much better since then. But, the same old myths still populate the internet, so let all just take a break and slug our bores.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I will be the odd man out here; I find writing from the 1920's and 1930's much better than anything done since 1970. The earliest books by Mattern and Naramore were very specific about descriptions and explaining facts. Yes, you had to use a dictionary once in a while, but that is how you learn. Now I see three paragraphs of baby talk to explain what one sentence could do. Except when you get paid by word, which is better?
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
The 7.65 Mauser has always struck me as a near-perfect hunting caliber for medium to large game in North America. If someone tries to tell me that the 308 WASN'T influenced by the earlier presence of the 7.65 Mauser, they get told STIFLE YOURSELF.

Ahem.

The internet enabled a lot of us to compare notes and experiences on casting and shooting, and all of us make gains from the collaboration sites like this facilitate. Buckshot (Rick Tunell) turned me on to the old Boolits sub-site to Shooters.com c. 1996, and things went into fast-forward for me after that. Felix Robbins was a treasure for sure. Now we have what I think of as a distillation of all the best features and content of that internet cast bullet hobby field here at A&SBC.
 

Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
I will be the odd man out here; I find writing from the 1920's and 1930's much better than anything done since 1970. The earliest books by Mattern and Naramore were very specific about descriptions and explaining facts. Yes, you had to use a dictionary once in a while, but that is how you learn. Now I see three paragraphs of baby talk to explain what one sentence could do. Except when you get paid by word, which is better?
You're correct, but I didn't even know Mattern or Naramore existed until I got on Shooters. It took me years to find the books after that. Stumbling along with magazine articles and an old Lyman or RCBS loading manual was it for a lot of people. I was lucky enough to stumble onto "Handloader" back when it was well edited and worthwhile. But it was the sounding board a forum is that allows you to ask question adn get a response while it's still fresh in your mind.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Residing in New England
Saw that trigger and thought, that's not going to work on a '91 Mauser. Went back to the first post and read that the rifle is an '09.
Actually I have BOTH!! A 1889 Belgium (predecessor to the 1891 Argentine ) and a 1909 Argentine.
This is for the 1909. I added a bolt shroud so it lost its factory safety and needed a trigger with a safety.
CW
 
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Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
I will be the odd man out here; I find writing from the 1920's and 1930's much better than anything done since 1970. The earliest books by Mattern and Naramore were very specific about descriptions and explaining facts. Yes, you had to use a dictionary once in a while, but that is how you learn. Now I see three paragraphs of baby talk to explain what one sentence could do. Except when you get paid by word, which is better?
The general reading comprehension level of the American people has declined seriously since WWII.
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
The 7.65 Mauser has always struck me as a near-perfect hunting caliber for medium to large game in North America. If someone tries to tell me that the 308 WASN'T influenced by the earlier presence of the 7.65 Mauser, they get told STIFLE YOURSELF.
The 300 Savage was the inspiration for the 308/7/62 Nato round. I have no idea what role the 7.65 played, if any, if the development of the 300 savage. I will now go and stifle myself.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Every nation on earth pays close attention to the war toys of every other nation on earth. The military objective of the 308 round was to obtain the performance of the 30-06 round in a case 1/2" shorter, since shorter action lengths were more amenable to the self-loading rifle and machine gun systems that were taking over after WWII. Both 300 Savage and 7.65 Mauser existed prior to the 308, but both got passed over in favor of a new design--the 308. The 308 retained many features of the 30-06, including most of the bullet types used in a range of venues (Ball, tracer, incendiary, etc).

The 222 Rem and 222 Rem Mag existed prior to the emergence of the 223 Rem. Both were tried by the USA using services, found wanting, and the 223 resulted. Who knows what the military's thinking was or is? Pre-existing calibers couldn't/didn't make the cut, something new was authorized, and without fail those military-accepted calibers go on to relegate the older and very similar calibers to near-obsolescence.

No one should be surprised by these outcomes, if you are paying attention. It's how .gov does business. 1) Identify problem 2) Search for the guilty 3) Punish the innocent 4) Award/promote the shotcallers & marginally involved, re-assign and transfer the people that actually did the heavy lifting. In Government World, it is perfectly acceptable to gather information with diligence and depth, construct a database that is comprehensive and deeply detailed, ignore that data entirely, and choose something unaddressed by those years of data mining.
 
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Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
A few years back I read a piece by Eugene Stoner about the development of the 223 round and the AR platform. He said they found the 222 Remington not to be satisfactory in powder capacity, so they developed the 223. The development was complete though not marketed, when the 222 Remington Mag came on the market. He said if they had access to the 222 Rem. Mag during the development, the 223 would never have come into being.

After WWII Frankford Arsenal began the development of a new service rifle round. They wanted the performance of the M2 (30-06) in a shorter and lighter round. Using the 300 Savage as a starting point, they developed the T65 round which had several iterations. They formed cases from USGI brass and the final product has less taper than the 300 Savage and a longer neck. The final T65 round became the 7.62 Nato or the 308 Winchester in civilian dress.
 
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Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
Jeeze, if we start getting into the hows and whys of what is and should be but isn't, this is going t be a massive thread! At least in this place we shouldn't get too many ninnies that have apoplexy if someone mentions using a pre-98 Mauser with actual LIVE AMMO!!!! Some of the hysterics I've seen on places like The High Road have caused me to stick to pretty much this board an no others.

That being said, I agree that if every big game hunter in the lower 48 were limited to the 7.65 Mauser (or the 7MM or 8MM Mauser) there would be basically nothing but good things coming from it.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
7 for deer and 8 for elk works pretty good, then I went and got a 0-6 and messed it all up.
oddly enough my 7mm rounds mimic the factory ammo from 100 years back.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Where the 308 starts slipping in comparison to the 30-06 is with bullets of 180 grains and heavier. The '06's bigger boiler room makes a difference. Of course, THAT concept can be carried to extremes like the 300 Weatherby Mag, which have not appealed to me so far. The 30-06 is plenty in 30 bore. Other folks feel differently, and that keeps the boredom at bay nicely.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
7 for deer and 8 for elk works pretty good, then I went and got a 0-6 and messed it all up.
oddly enough my 7mm rounds mimic the factory ammo from 100 years back.
Perfectly happy having shot a bunch of stuff with my 7x57. The old Nosler 175 semi spitzer is just an auger, but an auger with expansion. Deer, elk, moose, and a feral Angus bull, have all fallen to one Nosler started at 2,640 fps. I have never regretted that decision.
 

Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
I’ve decided to load 180gr Partitions in my 30-06 this next season. We have some big elk here in Western Washington. If I ever get lucky enough and get a shot at one I don’t want to screw it up.

The seasons run right into each other. I don’t know if I’d be able to re-zero for another load. It starts with modern deer then two weeks of Elk and then late modern buck. So it will be 180 Partitions for deer and elk this year.

Unless I spend some time sitting in a tree stand this year. Then I might use the 30-30 with a full case of H-414 and the Ranch Dog 165gr.

As far as the 7.65x53mm goes. Well I don’t have one, I’ve never shot one, but it’s a cartridge that feels strangely familiar to me. It’s because it is so similar to the 7.7x58mm that I load. They are both oversized 30’s, they have similar case capacity, both are only encountered in milsurps, and many people who reload for them use 30-06 to form their brass. All that feels real familiar.