7.65 Mauser musings

CWLONGSHOT

Residing in New England
414... wow there is a powder ta dont hear much on about anymore! Is it even still
In production?? Orange label IIRC, I have I have a partial pound surely never tried in a 30/30..
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
7 for deer and 8 for elk works pretty good, then I went and got a 0-6 and messed it all up.
oddly enough my 7mm rounds mimic the factory ammo from 100 years back.
As a gun buff and a reader and reloader I got a bit of a surprise when I made my first Western hunt to Wyoming in 1989. My Dad, brother, a good friend and I went on an Antelope hunt west of Casper. I had a .250-3000, Dad and Gordy had .257 Roberts, and my late lamented friend Tom had the world's shiniest Browning 7 mag.

We were staying at the Miracle Mile Ranch on the Platte River and our hosts were a wonderful, self sufficient ranching couple, that told us, "We sell beef, we eat Elk."

We were staying in some converted bedrooms in their basement, and it resembled a General Store down there. Eventually talk turned to rifles, and Ed the rancher, put his out for our perusal. First was his retired Model 94 .30-30. A sorrier looking specimen I'd never seen. Rode hard and put up wet was exactly its history. The butt stock where it had been exposed in a saddle scabbard was bare wood, sun bleached and raggedy. The wrist had so much friction tape, yes friction tape, not even electrical tape, that Ed said you had to squeeze the lever to get it to discharge. Ed said it was retired when the wiggly butt stuck made it too hard to shoot accurately. Yes, it had been his Elk rifle, he said it worked fine. The stock got busted when a horse rolled on it. Ed told us that story with some self deprecation. He said every rancher should know better than to leave a rifle in a scabbard on a horse when he dismounts for more'n a few seconds. His only twenny two was a similarly battered Nylon 66, more tape. If I remember correctly, it was in a Jeep when something heavy got tossed on it. I was becoming disenchanted.

Ed couldn't recall how many Elk he'd killed with the .30-30, but he said until very recently the ranch was awarded two "ranch tags" every Fall. He explained to my why you looked for a "blonde" cow if you wanted the best meat.

He put the .30-30 back into an equally beat up scabbard and slid it up into the ceiling of the basement, and drug out his "new" rifle. I was shocked again. A bedraggled Remington 760 pump in .30-06 with a K-2.5 Weaver on it. Ed told us the .30-06 had so much more range that he thought it best to have a scope put on it. Again the right hand side of the stock was without finish, but at least it wasn't broken. Bluing, well it had been blued once upon a time, but much like the Model 94, many miles of riding in a saddle scabbard with fine dust had given the rifle a, well let's generously call it patina. As I was recovering from my dismay at finding a clunky old Wisconsin style deer camp rifle in the hands of a "Genuine By God Western Rancher," I asked what ammo Ed used to kill Elk. His reply left an indelible mark on my formerly Jack O'Connored, Elmer Kiethed, Skeeter Skeltened, Finn Aagaarded, outdoor writer educated psyche. With my confidence already addled, (after all I had been convinced the hoary old .30-30 was inadequate for white tails), my experience was limited to government mandated shotgun slug use for deer. Ed told us and showed us. He said, "Whatever's on sale at the Holiday Gas Station." That was the closest source of ammo 36 miles away. Then he really delivered the knock out punch. "I like the 150 bullets when I can get them, they seem to shoot a little flatter." He pulled out a partial box of Holiday brand loaded by Federal, 150 grain pointed soft points.

I felt my ballistic world shifting beneath my feet. My moorings to decades of perusing articles and books containing the opinions of learned men who had trodden if not the world, then at least the West when game was plentiful and of Boone and Crockett proportions, were cast off. Elk cannot be killed with a mere .30-30. Cup and core bullets? What? Why a 150 grain cup and core soft point would render an Elk suitable only for display at the "Scratch and Dent" used Elk dealership. No exotic, high performance, controlled expansion hand loads? Ammo purchased at a, ah a, Gas Station? Oh my.

So, I guess the point of this rambling diatribe would be this. If we could hunt, shoot, and have the discipline to place our shots like the folks that actually live on and from the land, the 7.65x53 with a plain old mid weight jacketed soft point would work just fine. The world's Armies could have slaughtered all of the people they are answerable for, and all of the game been hunted, all of the competitions shot with a single example of a cartridge. Roy Weatherby not withstanding.
 

L Ross

Well-Known Member
I have two boxes of those bullets along with 6+ of the 154 RN. These are a favorite "dear" bullet!!
I'll never learn. I tinker and tinker and experiment year after year. The longer I live the less I know. The last few deer I shot with my 7x57 and .270 have been with 130 grain Speer Hot Core bullets down loaded to about 2,550 fps second in both rifles. One shot kills, complete penetration, minimal meat loss, blah blah, blah. If I have to shoot 100 yards I'll need some one with a pruning saw to walk in front off the bullet.

This year in celebration of the 2020 electile disfunction, (our season being in the 3rd week of November), I used the most politically incorrect rifle I own, a BCM lower AR-15 with an MKII trigger, and AR-Stoner upper in 7.62x39 with 123 grain Hornady .310" bullets and 25 grains of 1680, scoped. 72 paces down a logging road, one to the neck, DRT. I figgered on using it at least once before it gets confiscated.
 

Rick H

Well-Known Member
The last few deer I shot with my 7x57 and .270 have been with 130 grain Speer Hot Core bullets down loaded to about 2,550 fps second in both rifles.
That Speer 130 gr. Hot Core in either spitzer or BTSP form pushed by WW748 traveling at 2550+/- fps has accounted for more than a few Michigan whitetail bucks. Mine get launched from a 21" Bullberry 7x30 Waters barrel on my Contender Carbine. It is an easy shooting, easy carrying 5.5lb. scoped, accurate, little deer rifle.

I have taken deer with the .308W, 6mm Rem., 7mm Rem Mag, 45/70, and the little Contender Carbine in 7x30 Waters. (a few with various muzzleloaders too). To be honest they all do a good job of anchoring a whitetail buck with a decent hit.
 

Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
As a gun buff and a reader and reloader I got a bit of a surprise when I made my first Western hunt to Wyoming in 1989. My Dad, brother, a good friend and I went on an Antelope hunt west of Casper. I had a .250-3000, Dad and Gordy had .257 Roberts, and my late lamented friend Tom had the world's shiniest Browning 7 mag.

We were staying at the Miracle Mile Ranch on the Platte River and our hosts were a wonderful, self sufficient ranching couple, that told us, "We sell beef, we eat Elk."

We were staying in some converted bedrooms in their basement, and it resembled a General Store down there. Eventually talk turned to rifles, and Ed the rancher, put his out for our perusal. First was his retired Model 94 .30-30. A sorrier looking specimen I'd never seen. Rode hard and put up wet was exactly its history. The butt stock where it had been exposed in a saddle scabbard was bare wood, sun bleached and raggedy. The wrist had so much friction tape, yes friction tape, not even electrical tape, that Ed said you had to squeeze the lever to get it to discharge. Ed said it was retired when the wiggly butt stuck made it too hard to shoot accurately. Yes, it had been his Elk rifle, he said it worked fine. The stock got busted when a horse rolled on it. Ed told us that story with some self deprecation. He said every rancher should know better than to leave a rifle in a scabbard on a horse when he dismounts for more'n a few seconds. His only twenny two was a similarly battered Nylon 66, more tape. If I remember correctly, it was in a Jeep when something heavy got tossed on it. I was becoming disenchanted.

Ed couldn't recall how many Elk he'd killed with the .30-30, but he said until very recently the ranch was awarded two "ranch tags" every Fall. He explained to my why you looked for a "blonde" cow if you wanted the best meat.

He put the .30-30 back into an equally beat up scabbard and slid it up into the ceiling of the basement, and drug out his "new" rifle. I was shocked again. A bedraggled Remington 760 pump in .30-06 with a K-2.5 Weaver on it. Ed told us the .30-06 had so much more range that he thought it best to have a scope put on it. Again the right hand side of the stock was without finish, but at least it wasn't broken. Bluing, well it had been blued once upon a time, but much like the Model 94, many miles of riding in a saddle scabbard with fine dust had given the rifle a, well let's generously call it patina. As I was recovering from my dismay at finding a clunky old Wisconsin style deer camp rifle in the hands of a "Genuine By God Western Rancher," I asked what ammo Ed used to kill Elk. His reply left an indelible mark on my formerly Jack O'Connored, Elmer Kiethed, Skeeter Skeltened, Finn Aagaarded, outdoor writer educated psyche. With my confidence already addled, (after all I had been convinced the hoary old .30-30 was inadequate for white tails), my experience was limited to government mandated shotgun slug use for deer. Ed told us and showed us. He said, "Whatever's on sale at the Holiday Gas Station." That was the closest source of ammo 36 miles away. Then he really delivered the knock out punch. "I like the 150 bullets when I can get them, they seem to shoot a little flatter." He pulled out a partial box of Holiday brand loaded by Federal, 150 grain pointed soft points.

I felt my ballistic world shifting beneath my feet. My moorings to decades of perusing articles and books containing the opinions of learned men who had trodden if not the world, then at least the West when game was plentiful and of Boone and Crockett proportions, were cast off. Elk cannot be killed with a mere .30-30. Cup and core bullets? What? Why a 150 grain cup and core soft point would render an Elk suitable only for display at the "Scratch and Dent" used Elk dealership. No exotic, high performance, controlled expansion hand loads? Ammo purchased at a, ah a, Gas Station? Oh my.

So, I guess the point of this rambling diatribe would be this. If we could hunt, shoot, and have the discipline to place our shots like the folks that actually live on and from the land, the 7.65x53 with a plain old mid weight jacketed soft point would work just fine. The world's Armies could have slaughtered all of the people they are answerable for, and all of the game been hunted, all of the competitions shot with a single example of a cartridge. Roy Weatherby not withstanding.

My fear is that if I take a quartering to shot at 200 yards and hit the larger bodied Rosevelt bull (1,100 pound max weight) in the shoulder, I don’t want to only wound it. I want to punch right through that shoulder. Therefore 180 grain Partitions in my 30-06.

I’m new to big game hunting, plain and simple. But I have read many stories of unrecovered shoulder shot elk, that where shot with a cup and core bullet. I’ve also read many stories about the 30-30 harvesting many elk with a good broadside shot.

If I pulled into camp, got out of the suburban, the 30-30 was laying on the back seat, and an elk wandered onto the edge of the clear cut 125 yards away. And then was nice enough to offer a good broadside shot to me, I wouldn’t hesitate to take that shot.
 
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L Ross

Well-Known Member
My fear is that if I take a quartering to shot at 200 yards and hit the larger bodied Rosevelt bull (1,100 pound max weight) in the shoulder, I don’t want to only wound it. I want to punch right through that shoulder. Therefore 180 grain Partitions.

I’m new to big game hunting, plain and simple. But I have read many stories of unrecovered shoulder shot elk, that where shot with a cup and core bullet. I’ve also read many stories about the 30-30 harvesting many elk with a good broadside shot.

If I pulled into camp, got out of the suburban, the 30-30 was laying on the back seat, and an elk wandered onto the edge of the clear cut 125 yards away. And then was nice enough to offer a good broadside shot to me, I wouldn’t hesitate to take that shot.
Exactly! As a sporting hunter with only a bull tag, limited time, and uncertain opportunities, using the best controlled expansion bullet with the longest history of success is a wise decision.

My Elk experience is a bit thin with 5 hunts and 4 Elk killed. Three with the 7x57, all cows, ranging from 35 yards, 135 yards, and 150 yards and I never recovered a bullet. The 35 yard shot was a huge cow as she leapt out of her snow bed and was a bit of a angling shot after a 2 hour stalk to get the wind right.

The lone mature 5x5 bull was a 45 yards broadside trotting shot with a .54 caliber round ball and 95 grains of 2 fg BP. Complete penetration but the ball was caught by the off side hide and did not give me a second drain hole. That make the 135 yard recovery tracking job a bit of a concern until the last 25 yards when blood finally filled the chest cavity and poured out of the entrance wound.

If I ever get to go again, (less likely every year), I'd take my .33 w.c.f Model 86 and cast 200 grain bullets from my Accurate mould. I try for a cow tag and look for a big sun bleached cow.
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
I have a truly minty 91 Loewe Argentine that has the barrel and stock shortened to make a sporter. I have seen vintage ads for these rifles so configured. It has been taking up space in my safe for years and I have never found it's round tuit.

Addendum: While I have never found my 1891 round tuit, I did measure the bore and throat. The groove diameter is .312 and the throat is long and tapered. Midway closed out their 7.65 Norma cases some years ago and I bought 200 of them. I also have dies, including the form die to make cases out of 30-06 cases. I also have several "Fat 30" molds and one of which should work just fine.
 
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Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
Where the 308 starts slipping in comparison to the 30-06 is with bullets of 180 grains and heavier. The '06's bigger boiler room makes a difference. Of course, THAT concept can be carried to extremes like the 300 Weatherby Mag, which have not appealed to me so far. The 30-06 is plenty in 30 bore. Other folks feel differently, and that keeps the boredom at bay nicely.
In the January 1946 American Rifleman, Col. Whelen wrote the article "The 30-06 Is Never A Mistake". That is as true today as it was 75 years ago. It is far and away my favorite.
 

Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
I admit I'm a disciple of St Elmer...to a point. When my oldest boy got to deer hunting age I set him up with my Ruger Ultra Light 250-3000. He's not the worlds greatest shot from what I've seen and I was a little concerned about his ideas of what qualified as a "good shot in the kill area". So I decided to Nosler Partitions. I forget if they are 90 or 100 gr, but I worked up a nice load at what should have been about 2850 on a longer barrel, but was likely slower in the UL. I think he took 2 or 3 deer and a small bear with it. Always a nice DRT or short trail. Always found the lower half of the bullet on the far side of the carcass. It simply works. But, for myself, I like heavier for the caliber bullets, cast or jacketed. I dunno why, maybe it's the spirit of St Elmer. That being said, I also know a 32-20 within reasonable range is perfectly adequate in many situations for deer sized game. But that's for me, not Joe Sixpack. I think a great many lost deer aren't due to bullet failure or not using enough gun. I think it's because most people don't shoot enough to know what 50, 75, 100, 150, 175, 225 yards looks like in the field and most of them can't keep 5 shots on a paper plate at 75 yards under field conditions. Add in many are terrified of their monster magnum and we have a recipe for lots of fat coyotes.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Coyotes do well here, almost always sleek and fat. The only raggedy ones are those that eat ground squirrels that have eaten the poisoned grain put out by hay farmers. Warfarin messes critters up, from top to bottom of the food chain.
 

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
Elmer Keith was a significant person in the development of 20th Century guns. That said, he had a serious case of either tunnel vision, narcissism or just plain stubbornness. Once he got a notion in his head, he never let it go, even when facts said he was wrong. He started out in the big bore black powder era and formed his opinion about smaller caliber high velocity hunting rounds when the available bullets were of poor quality. Some of his dictum is demonstrably false. To this day, folks will use super hard cast bullet in 45 ACP barrels because Elmer said it was necessary due to the shallow rifling. These true believers will die before even considering that Keith was wrong. I started reading his stuff in 1955 and even had a drink with him at a NRA Convention a very long time ago. Nice enough fellow, but took himself way to seriously. The problem may be all mine, as hero worship has never found a place in my heart or mind. I respect many people, and defer to some, but at the end of the day, we are all just people. The fools are the ones that don't understand their own fallible humanity. The older I get, the less I know for certain. That said I still know for certain, that a 500 pound dog is a helluva big dog.
 
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RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Once he got a notion in his head, he never let it go, even when facts said he was wrong.
He admitted he didn't like the 30/06 because it "failed" to kill the one deer he shot with it. Of course it was a FMJ military bullet he had filed the point off of to make it a flat nose. But he was in the Montana National Guard and fired thousands of rounds of '06, but one bullet failure soured him on '06's.

But that said, he did find things that worked just by doing lots of shooting, hunting and guiding. He just never changed his mind and never really looked at what were the reasons, just the results. And he was a great story teller and I'm glad I got to meet him.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Mechanic/numbers/stuck in a rut guy . My life long hunting grounds required 1000 ftlb at 100 yards for big game , antelope , mule deer , big horn , elk , and mountain goat .

Just because I can work a 55 gr boat tail by the book to 1009 ftlb doesn't make it an elk cartridge . Taking in thumb rules the 300?? Gr RP HPs for Trapdoors in the original ported barrel 1895 Guide Guns @18" actually hit about 990 ftlb as worst case 45-70 . I'm not hunting a pronghorn with a HP anything .

The NOE 260-120 needs just 2100 fps to make the cut .
The NOE 279-124 needs the same .
The RCBS 45-500 will make it as a sub down to like 975 MV .
The NOE 311-230 needs 1900 fps
The RD 311-165 needs 2250 or everything you can get out of a 30-30 .
I haven't done the 7mm yet but I figured about any SIL , SP type 150-175 over 1950 should squeak by .
 

Joshua

Taco Aficionado/Salish Sea Pirate/Part-Time Dragon
The RD 311-165 needs 2250 or everything you can get out of a 30-30
I’ve got a 16” barrel on that Marlin. I doubt I’m getting 2250 even when I load the RD 311-165 over a healthy dose of W748. My plan is to only use the Marlin in tree stands and possibly still hunting alder creek bottoms, for blacktail.

The scoped m1917 30-06 will be carried for everything else this coming season.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I don't have any doubt that the big ol' flat will do the job just as well at 905 ftlb as 1006 . It's just a personal target goal before I go to milk jugs etc . I try to work an alloy that will expand vs not or fragment .
 

Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
Chargar, thing is Elmers "super hardcast" was like 16-1 lead-tin. Might have hit maybe 15 bhn. I think like a lot of his stuff it was a result of what he had available to him at the time. But he also had a lot of fight in him for sure. He wasn't 100% right about a lot of stuff, but he did get the idea across that poorly constructed bullets that depended almost soley on velocity weren't a great idea. I enjoy his writing, I LOVE the 35 Whelen and believe he was right on most of his handgun stuff. But yeah, he was stubborn, just like O'Connor, Paige, Brown, Whelen, etc.!
 

Bret4207

Northern NY Dangerous extremist...???
I’ve got a 16” barrel on that Marlin. I doubt I’m getting 2250 even when I load the RD 311-165 over a healthy dose of W748. My plan is to only use the Marlin in tree stands and possibly still hunting alder creek bottoms, for blacktail.

The scoped m1917 30-06 will be carried for everything else this coming season.
Ha! I was just watching an old movie from '38 or '39 and the hero had a '17 Enfield with a period scope on it! The second his thumb hit the safety I could tell what it was despite the poor picture quality. I think it was a Walter Pidgeon movie.