Close quarters self defense

[Jeff H]

I once read (and cannot find it again for the life of me) that WB Ruger said he doubted he ever cleared a dollar on the Security-Six line. Sounds like a bit of an exaggeration to me, but it makes sense it cost more to make than the GP 100, with the sculpted grip-frame and barrels, even after the taper was eliminated and they were called "heavy barrels." I Could never bring myself to buy a GP, but the SP was about as heavy as I thought appropriate for the 357.

Now, the Wrangler - I can see the production-cost savings all the way up to the gun counter. The Ruger American rifle savings show up all the way to the counter too. I'm not complaining, but it would be nice to be able to see that on the DA revolvers too.

Like I said, I guess I don't blame them, but sure would be nice to get something back for the loss of "fine blued steel and walnut," so to speak.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

With a 16 year production run and over 1.5 million units sold, I doubt Ruger lost money on the DA Six's You just can't lose money for that long and on that scale.
I don't doubt that Ruger would have liked to have made more money!

 

[RicinYakima]

An adjustable rear sight off a Smith J frame, like a Kit Gun, will fit a surprising number of guns with just a tiny bit of mill work in the "hog wallow" of most fixed sight guns. Worth considering. My Colt Army Special would be so equipped if I weren't such a coward!

When I built my 44 Special on 455 Webley action, I did the Kit Gun rear sight. I has worked perfectly, but the front sight is really high. Not a problem for a field gun.

 

[JustJim]

I am starting to think--no matter how great I think a revolver is--I should check out what is available for ammo or holsters before making a purchase. I got spoiled back in the days when I carried a 1911 or 1911-variant: ammo was easy to find, and everyone and their dog made a holster. With a Summer Special and a field holster, and almost any of the common carry loads, I was set.

Good carry ammo for a 44 special doesn't exactly turn up in every gunstore, and what you can find often won't shoot to fixed sights. Holsters are another matter: there's Leahy's Silver Dollar Pancake, and . . . um . . . I give up, what is everyone carrying their Bulldogs or similar in these days?

If I could still get the old police load, I'd try to source a 41 Mag Pug. After a tuneup, hammer-bob and conversion to DAO, and sourcing a decent holster, I could be happy. I suppose the same thing could be done with a 45 acp Pit Bull, but that would add another cartridge to the lineup (and I"m trying to avoid that).

 

[Petrol & Powder]

.............Good carry ammo for a 44 special doesn't exactly turn up in every gunstore, and what you can find often won't shoot to fixed sights. Holsters are another matter: there's Leahy's Silver Dollar Pancake, and . . . um . . . I give up, what is everyone carrying their Bulldogs or similar in these days? ................

Factory loads for the 44 Special are severely hobbled by SAAMI limits. Loading your own is about the only option. I not saying one should abuse a gun or get reckless with the pressure, but 15,500 psi is a joke in a modern gun.

 

[Bret4207]

1) Target Bulldog, steel front sight let in to the aluminum barrel shroud;

2) 3" SP101 with a Smith J-frame adjustable rear sight, but before I made the taller replacement front sight;

3) Stainless Mag Pug 357 with integral front sight removed/replaced with a Fermin Garza front sight;

4) Same gun with the fixed sight I made to replace the original "adjustable sight;"


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I need a mill!!! Nicely done in each case. That J frame sight is PERFECT for the 101, far better than the sights Ruger sticks on it's guns IMO. I had to look up Fermin Garza. Now I want a Bearcat again!!!

 

[Bret4207]

I am starting to think--no matter how great I think a revolver is--I should check out what is available for ammo or holsters before making a purchase. I got spoiled back in the days when I carried a 1911 or 1911-variant: ammo was easy to find, and everyone and their dog made a holster. With a Summer Special and a field holster, and almost any of the common carry loads, I was set.

Good carry ammo for a 44 special doesn't exactly turn up in every gunstore, and what you can find often won't shoot to fixed sights. Holsters are another matter: there's Leahy's Silver Dollar Pancake, and . . . um . . . I give up, what is everyone carrying their Bulldogs or similar in these days?

If I could still get the old police load, I'd try to source a 41 Mag Pug. After a tuneup, hammer-bob and conversion to DAO, and sourcing a decent holster, I could be happy. I suppose the same thing could be done with a 45 acp Pit Bull, but that would add another cartridge to the lineup (and I"m trying to avoid that).

My BD holster is an old 2 position pancake style I got out of the used holster box at a local gunshop. Haven't seen anything else quite like it, I'm not real fond of it and I doubt it was made for it originally. With all the custom holster guys out there, someone should be able to produce something you'd want for the asking. It's an option.

Far as ammo, isn't that why we reload? To produce the ammo we want rather than what comes off a shelf?

 

[Jeff H]

I need a mill!!! Nicely done in each case. That J frame sight is PERFECT for the 101, far better than the sights Ruger sticks on it's guns IMO. I had to look up Fermin Garza. Now I want a Bearcat again!!!

I did the Mag Pug without a mill. I think I posted it here in "Projects," but am off to class so can't dig it out now. Not sure I'd recommend the process. It was slow and nervy. Lots of fussing with setup. Fermin urged me on that, but I can't blame the hillbilly process on him, that's on me.

 

[Winelover]

Holsters are another matter: there's Leahy's Silver Dollar Pancake, and . . . um . . . I give up, what is everyone carrying their Bulldogs or similar in these days?

\

Azula Holster, made in South Africa (LH J-frame) barrel not marked but guessing 3".............bought used off CB.







Don Hume #2
H721 No1 2 1/2"-3"
(LH) unmarked


As stated before, my 357 LCR fits in J-frame holsters.

Retention strap closes and functional on both revolvers.

 

[oscarflytyer]

I am using a lot of the Azula pancake holsters lately. Latest one I just got was for the Taurus 865UL. Think 6 shot beefy J frame. Azula was only one I could find making a leather pancake for it.

And a side note, Azula is not working out of Indian Trail, NC. And their customer service is great!

 

[Bret4207]

My main holster for my Smith M-38 is a closed end, but I have an open end holster in the pile someplace. I'm going to have to see if the BD fits it. Doesn't seem like it would, but I'm often wrong...or so my wife reminds me.

 

[CZ93X62]

I can certainly see the practicality of a snubby 'Roscoe'. That it could be had in 44 Special adds much to its appeal.

A couple years ago I saw a S&W L-frame 5-shot 44 Magnum in my local toy store's shelves. This one had adjustable sights and a 4" barrel.......a Model 69, maybe? I almost snagged that critter, but thought that a 3" barrel and fixed sights would have been a far better option. I do like large holes in ne'er-do-wells when the need arises.

I don't think full-snort magnums would be a lot of fun in such an arm. A 4" Model 29 with such loads is about as much entertainment as I want from a handgun. I don't generally advocate carrying handloads for social engineering projects, but the 44 Special/Magnum is too little/too much. 'Skeeter's Load' suggests itself here.......in 44 Special cases a Lyman #429421 atop 7.5 grains of Unique imparts about 900-950 FPS depending on barrel length. 8.2 grains of Unique or 9.0 grains of Herco in 44 Magnum cases gives the same performance, and these are my most-fired 44 Magnum loads. I have no experience with the Charter Arms, Taurus, or Rossi revolvers and can't comment on using 'Skeeter's Load' in any of those.

 

[Glaciers]

CZ yes you’re talking model 69. I have a 4” model 69 with sights. My go to 44 Mag is a model 29-2 4” round butt. I wanted the model 69 because it’s a slight amount smaller and if memory serves it’s 6 or 7 oz lighter.
I have shot it a little, actually very little because I enjoy the model 29, which has become a habit.
There just seems to be a hole with 44’s in selection, CA size to N frame or the big Ruger SRH size pistols. Yeah theirs a few in the middle but they are few and far between and when you do find one it’s pricey.
I’ve had this 69 for 5 years or so and I need to get it out and use it.

 

[CZ93X62]

I nosed around on the S&W site this afternoon and saw that two Model 69 5 shot 44 Mags are listed as currently cataloged--a 4" version and a 3". The 3" variant has adjustable sights......and they are nice enough sights. They seem like having leather seats in a beater pickup used to haul hay out to the cattle feedlot, but they don't really hurt anything either. I mean, this is a close-quarters GTF Off Of Me piece. Adjustable sights gild the lily just a bit.

Yeah, I'm a heretic.

ETA--S&W has rolled out a 5.7 x 28 pistol of their very own this year.

 

[Bret4207]

'Skeeter's Load' suggests itself here.......in 44 Special cases a Lyman #429421 atop 7.5 grains of Unique imparts about 900-950 FPS depending on barrel length. I have no experience with the Charter Arms, Taurus, or Rossi revolvers and can't comment on using 'Skeeter's Load' in any of those.

The Skeeter 44 Spec load in a CA BD gets kinda torquey. A bit too much fun for regular carry, more of a hunting round. 6.5 Unique is much more to my liking.

As far as carrying handloads, unless you are an advocate the Ayoob the Boob, the chances of it becoming an issue are as infinitesimally small as any of us actually having to fight off a horde of armored mutant ninja zombies. You do the math on that one. Lots more chance your going to be putting down the rabid fox, pitbulls attacking a kid or something like that. They display of the sidearm alone seems to take the fight out of about 95% of the mouth breathing types out there. And if it does go south, your "target loads" in your "old fashioned, low capacity 5 shot revolver" aren't likely to be the issue some of your other guns with "more deadly hollow points" might be.

 

[Winelover]

Here's an article by Brian Pearce, listing three load levels for the 44 Special. Level one and two are safe for Bulldogs. Level two should be used judiciously.

http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/Brian%20Pearce%20on%20the%2044%20Special.pdf

 

[CZ93X62]

Many thanks to Bret and Winelover.

NOT an acolyte of Massad Ayoob. My sole concern about 'Factory load vs. handload' in a self-defense scenario has to do with petrochemical attacks on primers and propellant via unsealed case mouths and primer annuli.

 

[shuz]

I carry a Smith 69 in 2.75" bbl and a handload of an MP 200g hp and 11.0g of Unique. I just hope I never have to use it for "close social work"!

 

[Bret4207]

Many thanks to Bret and Winelover.

NOT an acolyte of Massad Ayoob. My sole concern about 'Factory load vs. handload' in a self-defense scenario has to do with petrochemical attacks on primers and propellant via unsealed case mouths and primer annuli.

I'd never even considered that Al. That makes some sense, certainly more than most of the other reasons I've heard based on internet rumor and professional witness/I wasn't really a street cop tales. No offense intended, you know how I get about Ayoob!

 

[Missionary]

Good reason not to rely on old loads for hunting and "repelling boarders".