Close quarters self defense

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Military ammunition and most commercial ammunition feature the sealant I spoke of earlier. I am aware of LOTS of experimentds to test the likelihood of moisture or petrochemical vapors attacking handloaded and therefor unsealed ammunition. The outcomes of those tests show that likelihood to be quite remote in the real world. I get that.

The fact remains that ammomakers still seal the primer annulus and the case mouths FOR SOME REASON. All of us here have been around the block a few times, but I figure the ammomakers know a lot more about the things that can go wrong with ammo than I do. For that reason, I choose factory stuff for my war toys carried for earnest purposes.
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
Be careful with handloads as self-defense loads. I was warned by more than one lawyer that they could twist handloading for self-defense into making you look like a wacko. Even my old NYSP shooting partner said never carry handloads in your carry piece.

Regarding holsters, it is not hard to make a holster if you have patience. I've made a few, including metal lined magazine holders for IPSC type events. You won't make it in 10 minutes, that's for sure. You start out with a pattern, first out of paper and then transferred to cardboard. You can form the cardboard to the gun to get final dimensions and shape. Then you transfer that to the leather. If you plan on lining the holster with leather, keep that in mind because it affects the fit. I personally don't like a lined holster because it does not want to let go of the gun.



Stitching is the tedious part. I used to hand sew mine while watching TV. Wear leather gloves because you will wear thru the skin on your finger pulling the thread tight. The leather has to be pre-punched with an awl or if you are anal, drilled with a small drill on a drill press. Stitching is then pretty easy. You finish the edges with a wood dowel, burnishing them using water and then Elmer's Glue for a nice smooth edge.

When you are all done, you put the gun in a plastic bag. Then you soak the holster in water until it is fully wet and then put the gun in and form the holster to the gun. Don't go crazy because you can make it fit so well that it is very hard to get out when you need it to. But if you do it right, you probably will not need a retention strap. A good dimple that goes into the trigger guard will hold the pistol fairly securely, unless you plan on doing cartwheels or flying Kung-Fu moves before you shoot your attacker. Another thing to keep in mind when you are forming the holster is that it will need to follow the curve of your waist. So, you need to account for that in the forming process. You could just strap it on while it is drying if you are going anywhere that day.

Another tip should you find that after stitching the holster is a little too small, use alcohol instead of water. It will allow the leather to stretch. This is an old trick for making racing leathers fit you after a winter of beer and wings. Soak them with alcohol, put innertube in them and blow them up.

Once it is dry, you can dye it to the color of your choice or leave it natural. A little Lexol will keep the leather from drying out. But don't go crazy with it as you want the leather to keep it's stiffness after drying. If you want a slick shiny finish on the outside, Johnson's Paste Wax or similar does a nice job.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Be careful with handloads as self-defense loads. I was warned by more than one lawyer that they could twist handloading for self-defense into making you look like a wacko. Even my old NYSP shooting partner said never carry handloads in your carry piece.
I researched it quite thoroughly some years back over several months at the same time I was PMing with The Boob. It's never been an issue in a criminal case, regardless of what The Boob says. The case he repeatedly refers to was not a case about handloads, but about powder burns and the so called investigators not using the same load as the defendant. That would be an issue for the defense to note, but they were apparently as ignorant as the investigators. I'm not aware of any criminal case that's come up since then where there was any issue either. Note I'm talking criminal case, not civil. In a civil case a lawyer can skew things any way he wants. That's what keeps The Boob in $$$. But hey- do whatever floats your boat. It's a non-issue, but use what you want.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I concur with Bret. I was part of hundreds of shooting investigations and several dozen shooting homicides over the years. I can recall one case from c. 2002 where I was pretty certain that a handload was used by a TRULY SHAG-NASTY meth & coke broker to sever his relationship with a mid-level distributor in Jurupa area. The bullet looked just like a whole bunch of the Hornady 90 grain .312" JHPs I had and still have) on my shelves in the reloading area of my garage. Other than rifling impressions, it was unaffected by transiting through his chest cavity and got trapped by the cloth of his shirt on its way out. We found it after moving the body--it fell out on the pavement.

In all of those cases, NOT ONCE did the subject of "Factory Load" vs. "Handload" ever come up. Not in the field, not in D.A. staffings, not in courtroom.

I was raised to believe that 'If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all'. For that reason I'll remain silent about Massad Ayoob. I don't want to break his rice bowl.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
In a criminal case, I can't imagine handloads v. factory loaded ammo having ANY significance at all.
However, criminal law is only half the equation.

In a civil case, any plaintiff’s attorney worth his salt is going to play the cards available to him. Or at least consider playing the cards available to him.

Will the presence of handloaded ammunition be a significant factor in a civil case? Who knows.

It’s not a question of, “Will the presence of handloaded ammo change the outcome of a civil trial”?

It’s a question of, “Why hand that card to the plaintiff if you don’t have to”?

Why even introduce the potential of fighting that battle if you can completely avoid fighting that battle?
 

Rick H

Well-Known Member
After a career in L.E. in a very high crime area I NEVER heard of the issue of ammo being reloaded or factory EVER being a factor in a REAL criminal or civil case. Nor have I talked with any other investigators in my state who did. There are those who create issues to use as a basis to sell their opinion to the highest bidder. If you repeat a falsehood often enough, to enough people it seems to take on a life of its own.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
After a career in L.E. in a very high crime area I NEVER heard of the issue of ammo being reloaded or factory EVER being a factor in a REAL criminal or civil case. Nor have I talked with any other investigators in my state who did. There are those who create issues to use as a basis to sell their opinion to the highest bidder. If you repeat a falsehood often enough, to enough people it seems to take on a life of its own.
I've never heard of the issue of ammo being an issue in a criminal or civil case either. I cannot imagine it being an issue in a criminal case but I CAN envision a plaintiff’s attorney attempting to make an issue of it in a civil case. That doesn’t mean that effort by a plaintiff’s attorney would be successful but why even open that door?

It’s not a question of, “will it be successful”? It’s a question of, “Why provide the opening for that potential attack in the first place if you don’t have to”?
 

Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
Well, I guess that I got more urban legend info from the loopholes that shot with us back then. I went so far to to make sure any ammo placed with home defense guns, even shotguns was factory stuff.

Since we are on the subject, here is another one that was shared with me. Never use buckshot as a home defense load. I believe I was told that it was illegal for use. I'd never heard that before. Probably should Google it. So I did and found nothing against using it. So, while I was there, I Googled handloads for self-defense. It would appear that the warning against it started with Ayoob. But the article went on with how it could work against you and actually did in one case. Here's a cut and paste to save you from clicking links and scrolling down.

Another potential downside is the legal aspect if you have to use those handloads in self-defense. A lot of experts, including Massad Ayoob recommend that you don't.

It isn't so much about the projectile design. It has more to do with replicability of a bullet with all the same ballistic properties. If you carry factory ammunition, forensic examination will show exactly what that bullet does. A handload...gets more complicated. You have to rely on the forensic investigators to test a round that is loaded EXACTLY the same as your handload...and you can't count on that.

There is at least one case in which it mattered, New Jersey v. Daniel Bias. Bias, who hand loaded his carry ammunition, was convicted of manslaughter in the shooting death of his wife. Mrs. Bias, according to The Morning Call, had a history of mental illness, and in Feb. 1989, grabbed the handgun during a typical domestic argument. She shot at Mr. Bias, and he rushed to grab the gun out of her hand. During the struggle, she was shot in the back of the head.

Daniel Bias told police that he was trying to get the gun out of her hands. As she ostensibly tried twisting away from him, the gun went off. The bullet entered behind her left ear, and she died from the wound.

At issue was the residue and blood spatter pattern on Mrs. Bias. The prosecution argued that the only way the pattern and residue that were present could have been there was if Mr. Bias had shot her from across the room. Mr. Bias, who loaded the pistol with a light handload, maintained throughout the process (four separate trials) that she shot herself as she was twisting away from him.

With factory ammunition, the exact load data can be discovered during the legal process by going to the manufacturer, who can tell a court all the relevant information about the load in question. From that information, forensic investigators can create a blood spatter and gunshot residue model from it. A handloader who doesn't keep meticulous records along with a way to identify exactly which handload recipe a bullet is...could wind up in trouble.

What is said to have happened to Daniel Bias was that the forensics team tested a more powerful handload and not HIS handload, which essentially is what the prosecution in his first trial hinged their entire case on. Bias, according to, again, The Morning Call (the newspaper of record in Phillipsburg, NJ, where Mr. Bias lived at the time) was convicted of reckless manslaughter in 1997, 8 years after the death of Lise Bias, and sentenced to six years in prison.

Don't kid yourself about prosecutors. Their job is to win cases, not pursue "justice." They get fired if they don't. "Justice," to many prosecutors, only happens when they win regardless of what happened in actual fact. They differ from individual to individual, but as a group they can and will resort to anything to get that win no matter how seemingly spurious, circumstantial or arbitrary their case may be. Justice, after all, is just an abstract concept, and let me assure you that Quixotic ideals and ethos are swiftly jettisoned when your career is at stake.

The idea here is that you don't want to give police or prosecuting attorneys anything that might be used against you. While use of handloads as self-defense ammunition doesn't mean instant conviction, it can end up being a wildcard.
 
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Snakeoil

Well-Known Member
I can't address every jurisdiction but I've never seen that in any code I've read.
Yeah, I suspect it is more urban legend. I could not get an answer to why when I pushed back. I think I remember who said it and will poke him when I see him on Sunday.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Snakeoil, thank you for providing that clip of the article. The problem there is the author of the article is telling the reader what the issue is:
"......At issue was the residue and blood spatter pattern on Mrs. Bias......."

We don't know if that WAS the issue, or the only issue. We only know the writer WANTS us to believe that was the issue.

I would have to read a lot more about that case, including actual trial transcripts before I made my own decision about what the issue (or issues) at trial was/were. .
 
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Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well not being from the Enforcement background, all I can say, in my defense is I couldn’t afford factory ammo. And given the chance anyone of us would qualify as an expert on the subject and should be able hold your own and might be able to run circles around the opposition.
But I don’t know how courts really work and don’t want to find out.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
After a career in L.E. in a very high crime area I NEVER heard of the issue of ammo being reloaded or factory EVER being a factor in a REAL criminal or civil case. Nor have I talked with any other investigators in my state who did. There are those who create issues to use as a basis to sell their opinion to the highest bidder. If you repeat a falsehood often enough, to enough people it seems to take on a life of its own.
Well said!