Close quarters self defense

[Bret4207]

Well, I guess that I got more urban legend info from the loopholes that shot with us back then. I went so far to to make sure any ammo placed with home defense guns, even shotguns was factory stuff.

Since we are on the subject, here is another one that was shared with me. Never use buckshot as a home defense load. I believe I was told that it was illegal for use. I'd never heard that before. Probably should Google it. So I did and found nothing against using it. So, while I was there, I Googled handloads for self-defense. It would appear that the warning against it started with Ayoob. But the article went on with how it could work against you and actually did in one case. Here's a cut and paste to save you from clicking links and scrolling down.

Another potential downside is the legal aspect if you have to use those handloads in self-defense. A lot of experts, including Massad Ayoob recommend that you don't.

It isn't so much about the projectile design. It has more to do with replicability of a bullet with all the same ballistic properties. If you carry factory ammunition, forensic examination will show exactly what that bullet does. A handload...gets more complicated. You have to rely on the forensic investigators to test a round that is loaded EXACTLY the same as your handload...and you can't count on that.

There is at least one case in which it mattered, New Jersey v. Daniel Bias. Bias, who hand loaded his carry ammunition, was convicted of manslaughter in the shooting death of his wife. Mrs. Bias, according to The Morning Call, had a history of mental illness, and in Feb. 1989, grabbed the handgun during a typical domestic argument. She shot at Mr. Bias, and he rushed to grab the gun out of her hand. During the struggle, she was shot in the back of the head.

Daniel Bias told police that he was trying to get the gun out of her hands. As she ostensibly tried twisting away from him, the gun went off. The bullet entered behind her left ear, and she died from the wound.

At issue was the residue and blood spatter pattern on Mrs. Bias. The prosecution argued that the only way the pattern and residue that were present could have been there was if Mr. Bias had shot her from across the room. Mr. Bias, who loaded the pistol with a light handload, maintained throughout the process (four separate trials) that she shot herself as she was twisting away from him.

With factory ammunition, the exact load data can be discovered during the legal process by going to the manufacturer, who can tell a court all the relevant information about the load in question. From that information, forensic investigators can create a blood spatter and gunshot residue model from it. A handloader who doesn't keep meticulous records along with a way to identify exactly which handload recipe a bullet is...could wind up in trouble.

What is said to have happened to Daniel Bias was that the forensics team tested a more powerful handload and not HIS handload, which essentially is what the prosecution in his first trial hinged their entire case on. Bias, according to, again, The Morning Call (the newspaper of record in Phillipsburg, NJ, where Mr. Bias lived at the time) was convicted of reckless manslaughter in 1997, 8 years after the death of Lise Bias, and sentenced to six years in prison.

Don't kid yourself about prosecutors. Their job is to win cases, not pursue "justice." They get fired if they don't. "Justice," to many prosecutors, only happens when they win regardless of what happened in actual fact. They differ from individual to individual, but as a group they can and will resort to anything to get that win no matter how seemingly spurious, circumstantial or arbitrary their case may be. Justice, after all, is just an abstract concept, and let me assure you that Quixotic ideals and ethos are swiftly jettisoned when your career is at stake.

The idea here is that you don't want to give police or prosecuting attorneys anything that might be used against you. While use of handloads as self-defense ammunition doesn't mean instant conviction, it can end up being a wildcard.

That is the exact case I was referring to earlier. It's not a case of a handload being the issue- the issue is the people looking at the case didn't seem to bother to determine, if possible, what load was used. Using factory ammo is no guarantee in this line either. You have your 6 or 12 or 17 shot gun, get involved in a gun fight, someone gets shot. The police find 17 cases, all marked "Winchester" for arguments sake. That does not mean that all 17 rounds were loaded with the same bullet, powder, to the same power level or were the same lot. For that matter, the defense could bring up the old "super deadly BLACK TALON line of reasoning, that you were just out to kill someone. So I fail to see any reason to get real excited about fantasy legal issues. If you ever do you a gun in self defense, your life as you knew it is simply over.

You were told buckshot was illegal to use in self defense? Were you also told it's illegal to drive barefoot in NYS? I
ll give you 2 things that are actual violations of NYS law- Adultery and not burying a dead horse at least 3 feet deep within 48 hours. You stand as big a chance getting busted for either of those as the handloads thing.

If you don't want to risk "wild cards" in a criminal prosecution after a self defense shooting, then don't ever shoot anyone in self defense!

 

[Bret4207]

I'm not going to break his rice bowl, and he writes a nice story.

He can also dodge a simple, direct question better than * * * * * *. If you care, PM me. If not, take my word for it.

 

[Bret4207]

You can have good credit, but still not be very liquid.

Describes me to a "T"!!!

 

[richhodg66]

I'm kind of intrigued with the idea that factory would be more reliable due to sealing of primers, lack of possibility of primer contamination, etc.

Most of the time, my handloads don't sit around that long before being shot, I also shot up stuff Dad loaded years and years ago that had been sitting in a non climate controlled morton building which all went bang. I did find a small batch of .45 ACP, I'm sure Dad didn't load. I suspect it was a friend of his whi died 40 years ago and Dad ended up with a lot of his odds and ends. Anyway, The powder in thise when I pulled them down had solidified into a mass inside the case, basically, I just recovered the lead and the rest got chucked, but afer digging the powder out, most of the primers went bang. He also had a small batch of fired .357 brass I pulled out the other day, there were three primed cases in the box, so I put them in a revolver and all three went bang. I kind of have to wonder how critical the sealed primer thing is.

 

[Jeff H]

Describes me to a "T"!!!

There ya go!

 

[Jeff H]

......

If you don't want to risk "wild cards" in a criminal prosecution after a self defense shooting, then don't ever shoot anyone in self defense!

I think once someone forces the decision upon you that someone's gonna die tonight, which forces the decision upon YOU to determine WHO it's gonna be, your whole life's gonna fall out from under you anyway. At least that's what I'd bank on, so plenty of motivation to be absolutely certain that it's the only way out, and hope you never have to make the decision and do everything possible to avoid the situation.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

I don’t want to get too far into the tall weeds here so I’ll keep this limited.

Criminal law involves the government versus an individual. The individual, if convicted, stands to lose money, freedom (prison) and in some cases, his life (capital punishment). The standard of proof needed to convict is “beyond a reasonable doubt”, which is the highest standard in our legal system. The criminal statutes are strictly construed – meaning if the law does not specifically prohibit some action, that action is legal. And any ambiguity in the law is settled in favor of the defendant.

To the best of my knowledge, under criminal law, the lawful use* of handloaded ammunition is a complete non-issue. Self-defense is a doctrine enshrined in the law well before even the settlement of the new world.

OK, enough said there.

Moving on to civil law.

Civil law is one entity or person versus another entity or person. There is no potential loss of freedom or loss of life at stake. The only real risk is the loss of money or property.

The standard of proof for one party to prevail in a civil case is the mere preponderance of evidence.

I do not know if an argument involving the use of handloaded ammunition would have any effect on the outcome of a civil action. However, that potential argument (regardless of whether it would be successful or not) can be COMPLETELY avoided by simply not using handloaded ammunition.

This isn’t about, “would the argument be successful”? This is about avoiding the potential argument all together. There is no known risk of criminal prosecution for lawfully using handloaded ammo in self-defense. Nor is there is a KNOWN risk of an adverse civil judgement (the loss of only money) if handloaded ammo is used in legitimate self-defense. But why not simply avoid the potential argument in a civil action if you have that opportunity?

• There are statues that make the UNLAWFUL use of some ammunition illegal but that has nothing to do with lawful actions, such as self-defense.

 

[RicinYakima]

He can also dodge a simple, direct question better than Slick Willie Clinton. If you care, PM me. If not, take my word for it.

Heard from those that have taken his "Training" that he is a slippery dude.

 

[Bret4207]

I think once someone forces the decision upon you that someone's gonna die tonight, which forces the decision upon YOU to determine WHO it's gonna be, your whole life's gonna fall out from under you anyway. At least that's what I'd bank on, so plenty of motivation to be absolutely certain that it's the only way out, and hope you never have to make the decision and do everything possible to avoid the situation.

I was put in that position several times. I found out very quickly that I really didn't want to shoot anyone (visions of lawyers dancing through my head) but I also didn't want to get dead. Ticklish times!

 

[CZ93X62]

Exchanging finality with someone is a definite Fork In The Road Of Life. Enough said.

 

[JustJim]

I do not know if an argument involving the use of handloaded ammunition would have any effect on the outcome of a civil action. However, that potential argument (regardless of whether it would be successful or not) can be COMPLETELY avoided by simply not using handloaded ammunition.

This is half of my reasoning for preferring factory ammo for carry loads.

The second half is that I don't plink with factory ammo. I find a factory load that shoots to my sights, such as the 38 +P 158 SWCs in my SP101, and set aside at least 2 boxes. I work up a load that shoots to the same POI, and that is my practice/plinking ammo. The factory ammo goes on the shelf, and I always have it when I swap out my carry ammo. When I open the second box, I buy more.

Some gun/load combinations don't work for me: my 44 special load would be a great long-range plinking load, wouldn't hesitate to hunt animals to the size of elk with it (if legal), and it is just too much for a 44 Bulldog. Buffalo Bore makes a 200gr hard-cast wadcutter load that I'm considering. If I go that route with a Bulldog, I'll work up a similar load for practice etc, but carry the BB load.

The Charter 41 mag looks like it would be perfect with the old police load. I'm not going to try the hot loads sold today in one: they already shoot W-A-Y too low out of my Model 58 and I would expect nothing less in a Bulldog.

The third half of my logic is that the factory loads I carry have low-flash powders; my handloads tend to not be low-flash.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

.....The second half is that I don't plink with factory ammo. I find a factory load that shoots to my sights, such as the 38 +P 158 SWCs in my SP101, and set aside at least 2 boxes. I work up a load that shoots to the same POI, and that is my practice/plinking ammo. The factory ammo goes on the shelf, and I always have it when I swap out my carry ammo. When I open the second box, I buy more. .......

..............The third half of my logic is that the factory loads I carry have low-flash powders; my handloads tend to not be low-flash.

I think your logic and practice is sound and likely emulated by many others.

One of the real advantages to handloading is the ability to create an inexpensive practice load that duplicates a proven factory load. Particularly when dealing with revolvers.
Lead bullets and revolvers go together like bread & butter. A cast bullet that is the same weight as a known factory load can allow for excellent practice at greatly reduced cost without changing P.O.A. / P.O.I.

Reloading isn’t the great bargain it once was but with revolver casings and cast bullets – it’s still a huge cost saver. Revolver casings are easy to recover, they last for many reloading cycles, and you can find a cast bullet that is just about any weight & profile your desire.

I hadn’t really thought about the low flash quality of factory ammo – but that’s also an excellent benefit. Add to that CZ’s point about sealed case mouths and primers, and there’s even more to like.

 

[RBHarter]

To step outside the fish bowl if you will .
The job of defense is to create doubt where it might be questionable or nonexistent and where raw evidence doesn't.
(This slug has 6 right it's obviously from a 9mm Smith....... except I have 125 gr HPs in a Ruger that has 6 right as does the FEG ....)
The prosecutors job is to make all of the evidence as solid and flaw free by removing all doubt . (Joe was obviously intent on killing Bob because he used a Hollow Point for massive expansion to cause as much physical damage as possible. Further by his own admission he produced ammunition that was intentionally more accurate, consistent, with the intention of placing as many bullet impacts in as small an area as possible for maximum injury effect .)

Ayoob was a defense attorney and had to think like he was going to use every possible attack of character and manipulation of every possible tool then build a defense for all of it just in case it happened and the jury had 9 persons on it that were competent in firearms . From outside it's not as inflamed as it would be with ones neck on the block .
Use factory ammo it takes away an entire line of questioning that if one were to pursue could be devastating to an otherwise clean case and leave the door open 20 other ways . What's worse is that the emotional value of such attacks can be as useful as any facts even with a jury of 12 , maybe more so .

The 30 of us not so much but short of a circuit court I don't see over 2-3 of us ever being in the same DMV office let alone a jury .

 

[Bret4207]

Ayoob was a profession witness, not an attorney to the best of my knowledge. And to throw a wrench into the mess, what makes anyone think that whoever is on the other side of the argument isn't going to accuse you of using handloaded ammo even if you use factory? If the people who are supposed to be experts can't duplicate a simple handload, what makes you think they can verify the round that was fired wasn't a handload? It's an empty piece of brass!

Going off on fantasy trips like this serve little purpose. So, don't use handloads, especially if you're driving barefoot and you've loaded hollow point buckshot on you way to bury that horse...unless you want to.

 

[Winelover]

I hadn’t really thought about the low flash quality of factory ammo – but that’s also an excellent benefit. Add to that CZ’s point about sealed case mouths and primers, and there’s even more to like.

Then there's the factory's more recent development of ammunition developed particularly for short barreled (<3") handguns.

 

[Bret4207]

Then there's the factory's more recent development of ammunition developed particularly for short barreled (<3") handguns.

Which gets you into "So the defendant purposely bought DEADLIER AMMUNTION designed for maximum destructive power!!!" There is no "win" in this issue.

 

[Winelover]

Which gets you into "So the defendant purposely bought DEADLIER AMMUNTION designed for maximum destructive power!!!" There is no "win" in this issue.

Then they should go after the manufacturer, and also the dealer that supplied it to the public. The deadliest +P+ ammunition has never been sold to the public, just law enforcement, anyways.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

To step outside the fish bowl if you will .
The job of defense is to create doubt where it might be questionable or nonexistent and where raw evidence doesn't.
(This slug has 6 right it's obviously from a 9mm Smith....... except I have 125 gr HPs in a Ruger that has 6 right as does the FEG ....)
The prosecutors job is to make all of the evidence as solid and flaw free by removing all doubt . (Joe was obviously intent on killing Bob because he used a Hollow Point for massive expansion to cause as much physical damage as possible. Further by his own admission he produced ammunition that was intentionally more accurate, consistent, with the intention of placing as many bullet impacts in as small an area as possible for maximum injury effect .)

Ayoob was a defense attorney and had to think like he was going to use every possible attack of character and manipulation of every possible tool then build a defense for all of it just in case it happened and the jury had 9 persons on it that were competent in firearms . From outside it's not as inflamed as it would be with ones neck on the block .
Use factory ammo it takes away an entire line of questioning that if one were to pursue could be devastating to an otherwise clean case and leave the door open 20 other ways . What's worse is that the emotional value of such attacks can be as useful as any facts even with a jury of 12 , maybe more so .

The 30 of us not so much but short of a circuit court I don't see over 2-3 of us ever being in the same DMV office let alone a jury .

You seem to be thinking in terms of a CRIMINAL trial. You are using terms such as “prosecutor”. While you are not wrong in your assertion that the defense attempts to create doubt in a criminal trial, a criminal trial is only half of danger faced by a person who uses deadly force. A person using deadly force will possibly face a civil action, regardless of the outcome of the criminal side of the matter.

In a civil action the person that used force will be the defendant. The party trying to take money from the defendant is the plaintiff. In that scenario, where preponderance of the evidence is the standard of proof needed to prevail, it is often the defense attorney that is attempting to remove doubt and clarify the facts.

I don't know that I would characterize Ayoob as a defense attorney, or even an attorney at all. He has frequently been employed as an expert witness and was permitted under New Hampshire law to participate in some prosecutions, but I don’t believe he is a licensed attorney.

In terms of the legal profession, he is a hired gun that is paid for his “expert” opinion at trial.

 

[Jeff H]

Then they should go after the manufacturer, and also the dealer that supplied it to the public. The deadliest +P+ ammunition has never been sold to the public, just law enforcement, anyways.

And, then there's the contrary argument that one would be best-served by sticking with local law enforcement uses....

Back to @Bret4207 and the "no-win" thing.

It's a choice between being killed at the hand of a dirt-bag or... all this.

On one hand, you're dead. Your family is SOL.

On the other, you MAY stand a chance of being of SOME use tho those who count on you if you live. Probably in a seriously financially impared state at that point, but you can still at least be of some use to them.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

It is extremely important to remember that being sued and being successfully sued..... are two entirely different things.