Emergency Generators

Ian

Notorious member
Another question is can you get by on one leg of 120. If you plan on energizing your panel, you will need to figure out in advance which leg you need most and turn off ALL the 220 breakers so things don't try to start up with half the voltage missing. Rick's genset is a single 120v unit. If you need 220 then you're going to have to get a bigger unit. If 120 will suffice in an emergency (make sure your blower is actually 120), then it isn't that far to Mountain Home.
 
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Outpost75

Active Member
While small inverter-generators provide clean sine wave AC which is better for running computers and sensitive electronics, I am not aware of any which are full service panel rated, being adequate to power a whole-house system with well pump, HVAC equipment, water heater, washer-drier, refrigerator, freezer, etc.

My home genset is not a "forever off-the-grid system," but is intended as storm backup sufficient for several weeks until its 1000-gallon LPG tank runs out, I get an LPG delivery to enable me to keep going, or the AC mains come back up.

A smaller genset must work harder, at a higher duty cycle. Typical "portable" systems in the 3-5kw range are marginally sized for nhousehold loads, are not continuous-duty or full service panel rated and do not provide seamless failover when used in a whole-house set-up. This means that you must either isolate or stagger high capacity loads from the backup system.

An electric 50-gal water heater uses about 4500w, a well pump about the same in "starting" load, ditto a heat pump. With a smaller genset you can't run multiple high-load pieces of equipment at once, so you must choose which ones and then alternate their use. Auxiliary power systems must be sized for the starting loads and not the running loads of compressors, pumps, etc.

If you are on municipal water so there is no well pump to worry about, that simplifies things. If you don't have forced-air central HVAC, that also reduces normal household loads. Having lived through a 2-week power outage during a record heat wave in which daytime temperatures exceeded 100 degrees F, and having lost over $500 in food which spoiled, I wanted a full-panel rated system able to run two 10,000BTU A/C units, well pump, water heater, washer, drier, refrigerator and freezer, etc. without having to make any adjustments to household "normality." Trust me that after age 70 you don't need to practice how to be uncomfortable anymore.

In winter food storage is less of an issue here because we keep perishables outside in the unheated garage pantry. But we need to maintain a limited amount of electric electric baseboard heat, just enough to keep water pipes from freezing when the house is vacant. Otherwise in winter we minimize electric use by using a woodstove and a gas fireplace, keeping wall thermostats set to 60 degrees and wearing sweaters. Just like living in Scotland!

My intent was to "flip" the whole house, maintaining a comfortable retirement lifestyle with as few inconveniences or adjustments as possible. I wanted a full-panel rated system providing seamless failover without any conscious action or adjustment. I sized the system larger than I needed to provide surplus "reserve" capacity to run machinery in my workshop and a trash pump in case the basement should flood. For normal needs for the average suburban house I would not plan for less than 10kw. For a large house, small farm and home business 22kw is better so that the system does not need to run at full capacity all the time. Sizing larger than you need gives both surge capacity and better reliability.

Installing a smaller 10kw vs. 22kw genset saves you only about $1500-1800 on cost of the basic generator. But unless you do your own site work, can do your electric connections to code, pull any needed local permits to get it inspected, the cost of contracting a full turnkey system for 22kw vs. 10kw is only about 20% more. Put the genset on a dedicated fuel supply. Do not "piggy-back" household appliances onto the same fuel supply. You do not want routine household appliance use to reduce the available reserve capacity for your backup power system. To power the genset get a BIG LPG tank, not less than 500 gallons. MUCH better to get 1000. The approximate cost to contract out the whole job to a licensed contractor, including pulling permits and getting the proper inspections so that your homeowner's insurance will cover it when the house burns down, is about $10,000 for a 10kw system vs. $12,000 for 22kw, for a full turnkey installation powered by LPG, with solid-state double-pole, double throw automatic transfer switch.

Pay the electrician and the gas company for the connection charges. Get the work done professionally and safely, and also get an annual service contract. Having an annual service contract ensures that your unit is covered under the manufacturer's warranty and it protects you under your home owner's insurance from accidents or damage resulting from equipment failure. It is a BIG mistake not to do this when ground bounce from a near lightning strike fries the circuit boards on your controls, or when you get sued because you didn't install an ATS so current backfeeds into utility lines and kills a line worker 1/2 mile away, who was trying to restore the power during an ice storm. Or maybe when you changed the oil you didn't get the drain plug tightened correctly so that it vibrated loose an blew out during the weekly test, spraying the entire inside of the generator enclosure with oil and leaving you with a dry oil sump, and causing a fire which burns down the house. I've seen ALL of these happen to neighbors who thought that they "knew it all," wanted to save a buck and did the work themselves.

Propane produces 92,000 BTU’s per gallon, non-ethanol blend gasoline is capable of producing 114,000 BTU’s per gallon, and diesel is capable of producing 129,500 BTU’s per gallon. This means that it takes more propane per hour that either gasoline or diesel to run a generator. But the advantage of propane is that it is stable for long term storage, so it doesn’t go “stale” like gas or diesel. So, how much propane will my generator burn per hour?

It requires 2 horsepower to produce 1000 watts of energy per hour under load

Under load each horsepower consumes 10000 BTU per hour

Propane contains 92,000 BTU per gallon

Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per gallon

While fuel consumption is less with a smaller genset, a 10kw using LPG uses 1.9 gallons/hr. at full load. This is about as much as a 22kw unit uses at 50% load. A typical 10kw LPG unit consumes 1.25 gallons/hr. at 50% of its rated capacity. That means a 500 gallon LPG tank would last only about a week at 50% duty cycle if you also use your gas stove, water heater and gas fireplace. This is because an LPG tank can be filled only to about 80 percent of capacity, because "headspace" is needed for the gas to volatilize and function properly. A 500 gallon unit filled to 80% powers a 22kw genset for about a week at 50% load. To provide the same reserve power capacity a 10kw unit must at nearly full capacity consuming very nearly the same amount of fuel, give or take about 5%.

Using these factors consider how long can a 5000-watt portable generator run on a 500 gallon propane tank at 50 capacity:

10 horse power at 50% would use 5 HP to generate 2500 watts of electricity

5HP X 10,000 BTU would consume 50,000 BTU per hour

500 gallons X 92,000 = 46,000,000 BTU of energy in a full 500 gallon tank

46,000,000 BTU divided by 50,000 BTU = 920

A 500-gallon tank that is "full" would run a 5000-watt generator at ½ its rated capacity for 920 hours.

After comparing the various fuels, I decided upon propane for a 22kw Generac Guardian in my fixed setting with 1000 gallon LPG tank. For small, portable generators I consider a tri-fuel generator which can run on either propane, gasoline or natural gas.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
All true of course and the same reasons I also went with the Generac 22kw. Also went with the professional installation for the same reasons. Your certainly correct about getting older and not needing a week or two with the power out. About the last thing I would want to do in the middle of an ice storm is be outside trying to get a genset running and swap wiring around.

However, Hawk had said that what he was looking for was the ability to simply plug in the blower motor on his gas fired furnace. That's the reason I offered him the Honda UE3000. It'll easily do that plus run the refrigerator, a few lights, the computer, weather radio etc. It is 120v ONLY. It will not run an electric water heater, water well pump, HVAC etc.
 
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
The one thing I have learned with gensets is that even the "big ones" ( I have a 25 Kw PTO model) don't give a real clean power signal. But then, neither does our grid power when the wind is blowing hard, it's real cold or real hot. I've learned that it's best to turn off a few appliances under those conditions. My wifes beloved double oven goes absolutely wonky if I forget and try to run it on the genset for instance. It's pretty easy to throw a breaker once you figure out which ones are real sensitive.

FWIW-- Diesel can go "stale" and get algae problems, but that that usually takes YEARS to happen. Pump gas, especially ethanol bearing types have a shelf life literally measured in weeks, and you won't need any extra hands to keep count. I wouldn't write off diesel, properly stored.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
I have a natural gas furnace and I want a generator to keep it going in an outage. Really just need power for the fan. 3/4 hp, I think.
Not looking to run the whole house, just the furnace, a coffee pot, a couple of lamps and maybe the microwave.

5 ton furnace.

Let's go back to Hawk's original post.
 

Fiddler

Active Member
I used a 1400W Honda to power the freezer or frig. and oilburner for many years. Had to get water from the gutters or pond to flush the toilet. Decided that was getting old. Considered ~5000 watt portables that would need 5+ gals of gas per day, that may be unobtainable. Well, I'm 75 and still capable of moving, setting up and starting a larger gen. don't know how much longer and the wife is not be able to do it. Ended up with a Kohler 14KW and a 320 gal. propane. Pro set up, it would have way above my abilities. They want $350 for a yearly service contract that made me think of doing the yearly maint. myself. After reading 'Outpost75's' post, maybe it is a good idea to let the pros do it.
In the past 10 months it has started 6 or 8 times and never more than a few minutes an a time. Strange that no one in the neighbor hood has thanked me yet.
 

Hawk

Well-Known Member
Rick, thanks for the offer. I could rebuild/service/flush the fuel system myself, but you may be a little too far out. I'll probably just buy a new one locally.
Yes, I'm looking for a portable generator, but I am gleening a lot of ideas from this discussion.
I may pay an electrician to wire a box into our main breaker box so I can run one extension cord to the box and just flip breakers to cycle between major appliances and the furnace. But, that may be overkill, as two extension cords may be enough.
Our power supply lines are underground, so we are not effected by down tree limbs, just the grid going down.
Last year was the first year we had ever been without power for more than an hour or two, so I'm trying to find a balance between spending enough money to survive a power shortage in a bad freeze that happens once every ten (???) years.
They just caught me with my pants down last year.
We would have spent a few days with my brother, but didn't want the pipes to freeze.
BTW, my furnace is on a single 15 Amp breaker and we have APC UPS on the computer and the entertainment center.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
An HF 3500W would probably do the trick.

I am my own water company and depend on a heat pump and electric water heater so 10KW is a minimum for me (9 something on propane) and even at that would have to alternate breakers to keep the water hot. We have two small children and keeping them entertained and comfortable is a full-time job in itself, ain't got time to screw around with makeshift heat, stove, and lights/entertainment if the power quits. Now I go throw the master pole breaker, the master panel breaker, turn a valve, and hit the start button.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
I hear HF,,, but maan.
at least check your local tractor supply store and trailer sales places.
ask questions, and check out who can get parts [like carb rebuild kits]
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I hear HF,,, but maan.
at least check your local tractor supply store and trailer sales places.
ask questions, and check out who can get parts [like carb rebuild kits]
Not a lot of diff between HF and TSC products. Both come form the same place.
 
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BBerguson

Official Pennsyltuckian
I know this was talked about in another thread, but I need to buy a generator in case the power goes out again this winter.
Forecast is for a cold winter. Natural gas supplies are reported to be low due to hurricanes. I can easily see blackouts due to fuel shortages for power plants.
I have a narural gas furnace and I want a generator to keep it going in an outage. Really just need power for the fan. 3/4 hp, I think.
Not looking to run the whole house, just the furnace, a coffee pot, a couple of lamps and maybe the microwave.
5 ton furnace.
My brother has a 3500 watt, but that is reserved in case my mother's power goes out.
Inverter generators are much more expensive that regular generators.
Do I really need one and how big?
It really won't be used for anything else and I hate to spend the extra money, if I don't need to.
Sorry for covering this again.
Call your electric company and see if they have demand readings for your meter. If they do, you should be able to use that number to get a generator that will power your house.
 

Hawk

Well-Known Member
Not looking to power the whole house.
Just want to power the gas furnace to keep the pipes from freezing.
Maybe the fridge every few hours to keep the food from spoiling.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Around here if somebody sells a property they have to give permission to the utility company to disclose monthly energy use and cost for I (think) a 12 or 18 month period. I can get a twelve month summary any time I ask for anything we own. I understand you aren't trying to run a full load, this is not a comment on that. I just find it enlightening to see the energy use in the old buildings that come up for sale or lease around here.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
like Ian says a little 3500 watt unit should easily handle the fridge and the furnace.
if you run them manually by plugging and unplugging stuff you will have some lights and could even run the microwave no problem.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Agree with Fiver, if that's all you want go to HF and get a 3500 or 5000 watt rig. We do tend to go off on tangents here. You can get conversions to run those gensets on propane from several outlets, even Ebay.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
3500 will run AC in 5th wheel and everything else except microwave. Have to shut AC off to run it.
 

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
I ran across a deal on a new zero time 20 year old 12 KW Kobota diesel designed for a motorhome. Just meant I needed to make a skid and mount the radiator.
But I was shopping for a 6 or 8 kw when I ran across this Kobota 12 kw. A 6 or 8 would have been fine for our use, 8 would have been luxury, 12 is worry free.
We had a 4.5kw Kobota diesel that comes in a handy steel enclosure with a central picking point to load and unload at construction sites. I had installed it inside my shop and run the exhaust out a jack in the wall and a fuel line from my 500 gallon tank.
Point is while it’s nice with the 12 kw, but since we have a propane gas range and domestic hot water is made with the oil fired boiler, which lets us go on with life as normal without worrying about load swapping because everything is intermittent use. Fridge, freezer, furnace, well pump are all intermittently on. The 12 kw at 50 amps handles or 1700 sq foot shop 2600 sq foot home just fine. We do have a electric dryer but that’s the biggest Saturday load.
The 4.5 kw Kobota diesel would run the house fine but we all needed to be aware of what was running. The dryer did not get used unless planned in while other things were not on. If the well came on at the same time as the dryer was running got a bit of a brown out and the generator over load breaker would pop.
Point is the 4.5 worked just fine for our loads, just had to watch your loads. This smaller Kobota was part of our generator-solar-inverter power system for years before we got grid power. We had a 500 gallon water tank that supplied water for the house. Saturday we would run the generator and fill the water tank, do laundry and other electrical needs. Living off the grid with alternative power will educate you as to power conservation.
If your going to use a portable as Bret points out you can convert it to propane or natural gas. If you can afford it, buy Honda. They start and have cold weather crank case breathing system that won’t frost up and plug, which can cause high crank case pressure and blow a seal out and in short order pump the oil out. Had it happen on a 7.5 kw Craftsman gas generator.
But for warm country it doesn’t matter. But if a cheap generator gives up, well your back to looking for ice for your fridge.
Lots of good info in this thread. Obviously different individual needs and concerns depending on where you are, and you wallet.
 

Fiddler

Active Member
Pay the electrician and the gas company for the connection charges. Get the work done professionally and safely, and also get an annual service contract. Having an annual service contract ensures that your unit is covered under the manufacturer's warranty and it protects you under your home owner's insurance from accidents or damage resulting from equipment failure. ..... Or maybe when you changed the oil you didn't get the drain plug tightened correctly so that it vibrated loose an blew out during the weekly test, spraying the entire inside of the generator enclosure with oil and leaving you with a dry oil sump, and causing a fire which burns down the house. I've seen ALL of these happen to neighbors who thought that they "knew it all," wanted to save a buck and did the work themselves.
Thanks Outpost75
Yesterday the gen. company who installed my Kohler 14kw came for it's first yearly service. He installed 2 new (free) end panels that are better for excluding mice, I would not have known about that $1000 upgrade. A little late for the mouse proofing, so I supplied the mouse some 'food'. Installed the latest firmware, that is dealer only accessible. During the last weekly 20 min. exercise a slight variation in rpm could be heard, he pickup on that a few seconds after it started and corrected for it, I know nothing about propane powered equip.
Answered all my questions!
 

FrankCVA42

Active Member
Living here in semi rural Louisiana, it's a fair guess that during hurricanes, wind storms,thunderstorms that the power will definitely go out. I have a Craftsman 7kw gas generator that I have had for about ten years. Longest we went without power was three days. So would run the generator just to keep the food in the fridges and freezer from going bad and a couple of lights. When hurricane Harold went by had no power. Generator leaked gas so had to tough it out. Only had the power out for 12 hours. Had a 22kw Propane generator with 500 gal propane tank. Usually 10 seconds after power goes out, the generator comes on. Quite common during t'storms to loose power. Total cost for everything was 13K. Since I have lung problems and use a bipap machine that alone is worth the cost for me. Frank