Emergency Generators

[Petrol & Powder]

There are different degrees of dependance on supplies. The bottom line is, “WHAT YOU HAVE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE EMERGENCY IS WHAT YOU HAVE”. There is no waiting for the emergency and then obtaining what you need. (Being able to obtain what you need signals the end of the emergency). I grew up in hurricane country and having a plan was just a way of life.

People that sail on the open ocean have a good grasp of the concept. What you have on the ship when you depart land is what you have. (Water, food, fuel, communications gear, navigation equipment, life saving equipment, etc.) There is no running to the store to get something.

Of the 4 fuels that we are discussing (Gasoline, Diesel, Propane & Natural gas), 3 of those fuels you must have a supply on hand before the emergency occurs. You will have no means to obtain those fuels (gas, diesel, propane) once the emergency exists. The 4th fuel, natural gas, is not stored on-site. With natural gas you have a nearly unlimited supply of fuel – IF the distribution network continues to function. You have no control over the distribution network. So, the trade-off is dependance on a system you don’t control.

In the last 10 years I have experienced numerous disruptions of electrical service. Two notable events were 8 days in mid-summer and 6 days in mid-winter. I made it through those events with a supply of propane. To conserve fuel, you don’t run the generator constantly but even with conservation – you have what you have.

 

[Jeff H]

....natural gas, is not stored on-site. With natural gas you have a nearly unlimited supply of fuel – IF the distribution network continues to function. You have no control over the distribution network. So, the trade-off is dependance on a system you don’t control...

The logistical implications (especially as we get older) of storing other fuels are serious considerations, reliance on ANY service provided by others does as well.

As someone else has mentioned, a huge NG pipline runs right by my house (so does fiber-optic comm transmission line), but I can't get it.

If I COULD get NG, I'd likely get on board. Propane is,... well it's a racket and I'll not go off on THAT tangent, BUT if I had NG, I'd also keep a gasoline or diesel generator too, with a limited/manageable stock of fuel. Currently, I have to keep gasoline on hand for the lawn mower and chain saws anyway.

No, I won't be worried about mowing during an emergency, but I HAVE had to run the saws and HAVE had to use some of the gas for a vehicle. No power HERE means no power at gas stations (sometimes) as well as no power at some cell towers, which some people don't get. Still paying for a landline which actually works when the power is out.

Not having all one's eggs in one basket has some merit too, so implementing a mix-n-match solution isn't merely a compromise.

When I signed up with the propane company I am with now, they set the tank (THAT was a circus) and we waited until I ran the old tank out to switch. It was a cold winter, with temps of zero in December already, and down to -10 in January/February. There was (of course) a huge "propane shortage," and the price went through the roof, plus they rationed it - and then wanted to charge people on automatic delivery for an out-of-cycle delivery.

I was trying to heat a whole old farm-house with a little Jotul 602 (which performed admirably) and a lot of my wood had atmospheric moisture which wouldn't dry because it was so frozen. I was nearly OUT of propane and was on the phone several times with the propane company, because t hey hadn't been out since summer, when they set the tank. Argued and argued, until I got the owner and told him to pull up my account and LOOK at my actual USAGE! "Ohhhhhh, sh..." Yeah, Buddy! their stupid algorithm had me pegged for basically zero usage because I was new and had never developed a trend. This was a Friday and they finally came out on Monday and I could see a couple inches of frost on the bottom of that tank, which might have lasted another day.

Doesn't hurt one bit to spread it around a little, even though it's a pain in the neck to manage the logistics. "Plan-B," implemented in addition to "Plan-A" sometimes saves the day. I now also keep a "Big Buddy" portable propane heater, and two 20# tanks-full for use in the shop and the garage, when necessary (casting days?), which I can drag into t he house if necessary. My local ACE will actually FILL those tanks to a whole 20#, with no BS too.

Not saying I have it all figured out, but my otherwise less-than-ideal patchwork of means (in several aspects) has actually saved the day a time or two.

 

[Rick]

We can pre-buy propane which I will do this month. Lowest price of the year and it's delivered the rest of the year at today's price.

 

[Glaciers]

Yeah in cold country you need to be self reliant because when the power goes out all you’re neighbors have the same problems as well. Besides the obvious inconvenience of not being able to turn on the lights, the well pump, refrigeration, heat, on and on as P&P points out, so if your not prepared when power is restored all the frozen burst pipes start pumping water inside your house and if it’s below zero your house is going to have severe damage and not be livable.
Our biggest outage was the day after our youngest granddaughter was born and home from the hospital. Power was out for right at 7 days. My son and I had removed the diesel generator from the generator room to convert to my future reloading room. And had not moved to the knew location yet. So back to the old room with it and reinstall. Redo the fuel system, exhaust system, mounting skid. It took about 6 hours but was faster then completing the new location.

Hawk we used to convert the Honda inverter generators to be switched from the gas tank to propane or natural gas. Dual fuel with the quarter turn fuel valve. If you could tap your natural gas delivery system for your house for a 7.5 Honda inverter model converted like that, it would be the cheapest and reliable. I know for a safe hookup it would need to be by a licensed contractor, but they do that for outside BBQ’s and fire pits, so there’s a maybe.

 

[Jeff H]

We can pre-buy propane which I will do this month. Lowest price of the year and it's delivered the rest of the year at today's price.

While a very unusual event, during that "shortage," people who pre-bought weren't getting what they had bought. Nobody was. Many who pre-bought suspected that what few deliveries of limited fuel WAS delivered, was delivered to those who did NOT pre-buy and were paying in excess of $4/gallon.

Just got the pre-buy/budget/cap mailer the other day and am thinking about pre-buying this year too.

 

[Rick]

I didn't pre-buy last year and got burned for $3.50 a gallon last spring. The only shortage there has been here for several years was a few years ago during icy snowy roads and they could not get their deliveries from up north. Only lasted a few days and back to normal. My supplier took care of existing customers and pre-buy first though they did limit it to 200 gallons. Came back the following week and topped it off.

 

[Hawk]

I've lived here 71 years and remember outages lasting more than a couple of hours only once and really only worried about the pipes freezing in winter and the refrigerators and freezer food spoiling. The rest is comfort, convenience and security for the wife.
Our power lines are underground from the substation to our house, so power line down by wind is probably not a problem. Rolling blackouts and restrictions due to shortages are my main concern.
Really looking for a portable generator, as I have a lot of family and in-laws in the area and I could take it where it is needed. Also, I don't have to run it full time. I could use it intermittently to keep things warm and cold, as needed.
Also, I have a primitive deer lease camp, so I have several large gas cans (that I routinely cycle gas thru to keep it fresh) and 7, 20# propane bottles.
I'll probably have a transfer switch installed by the main house breaker box and an outdoor plug installed on the outside of the garage in the back yard, similar to a trailer park power box.
The natural gas intrigues me. I may look into having a line run to the back yard, but i'm concerned about supply issues as they may curtail supplies

My biggest concern is every major appliance I have has a circuit board and probably micro processors controlling them. Fluctuating power that may blow out the circuit boards and cost me new refrigerators, microwaves, computers, and a furnace worried me.
Not really sure if this is a real problem or just a marketing gimmick to jack up the cost of an inverter generator. I'd really line to have an inline conditioner as opposed to one on a generator.

 

[Hawk]

And, I really appreciate all of the comments.
I'm learning a lot from this thread.
Thank you!

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Hawk, check your inbox

 

[Jeff H]

Use that link I posted as a basis for comparison and shop around. Maybe that one is just the berries or maybe there's a better one. I stumbled upon mine in (of all places) bLowes one day while looking for something else. I'd just gotten an estimate from my CoOp for $600 for a transfer switch and was a bit taken aback. I explained that this was to protect their linemen and $600 would deter a LOT of people. It deterred ME.

I grabbed the one I saw and installed it, and I never saw another one there again.

 

[Glaciers]

Hawk your reasoning is sound, the portability idea for your particular needs makes since. But if you’re going to be taking it from one location to another I would highly recommend the inverter models. Well worth the money.
Here’s why I believe that. In the solar off grid sales up here in the third world country of Alaska we have a great demand for off grade small systems. In the small systems you have solar, batteries for storage and in inverter to provide the ac needed for your house/cabin. Also as back up a generator and charger for when the sun does not provide needed power.
One customer comes to mind. The alternative charging systems we would sell had a input voltage from 90 to 150 volts of ac from a generator with a wide cycle rate as well. They were almost idiot proof, almost. This one individual blew up this charger so we warranted it. One month later he’s back with another failed unit. So I asked about his generator. He says why? It’s brand X and was just fine. Ok I replaced the charger. About a month later, give or take a little, he’s back. Same problem. I said you need a good generator and that would cure the problem. And that I would not warranty his charger unless he purchased a Honda from us.
Well he grudgingly purchased the generator and I gave him a new charger.
Did not see this customer again until the following winter. He was in for something don’t remember what, but when asked how his system was working he replied “Great” no problems at all. He said he was extremely happy with the Honda and it’s performance.
This was not an uncommon problem from crappy generators. There are other inverter brands out there that are fine, but, the inverter generator is a quality tool.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Propane is a bit of a racket, at least in my neck of the woods. However, you have to look at the big picture.
Propane stores well and a lot of devices in my house are run off of propane (furnace, water heater, cookstove, a space heater, generator, etc. ). So for me it makes sense. Everyone is in a different boat.
When I do need a generator, it is often for days at a time (not continously but for multiple days). Propane gives me the ability to hold out for a week or so without much headache.

If I routinely stored large amounts of diesel, that might change my situation.

I do keep some gasoline on hand for the chain saw, trimmer, even use in vehicles if needed. I also rotate that fuel through a vehicle and replace it with fresh fuel occasionally. However, I don't care to keep large amounts of gasoline on hand. it doesn't store well and is a bit of a hazard. I have run portable generators off of gasoline for days on end and I would perfer to not repeat that. Again, everyone is in a different boat.

A transfer switch and some type of "one point input" for the generator feed really reduces the effort to switch over to generator power when you need it. And it avoids accidentally back-feeding the mains and killing a lineman.

The key to all of this is stopping to THINK & PLAN before you start buying, wiring and plumbing.

 

[Bret4207]

I've never played with an inverter genset, but I do know that you can lower the variances in supply from a standard genset by getting it tuned right and making sure the governor is set up properly for your specific needs. Much as I admire and love Honda, the boys setting them up at the facotry can't foresee every eventuality!

 

[popper]

The transient spike protectors for your computer (that need replacing after a big spike) can hurt the electronics. High/low voltages will harm equipment some, mostly motors/etc. High sustained voltage on PC board regulators may burn them out. Low voltage, stuff may or may not work. Motors need a specific line frequency or they can burnout. Power company freq is tightly controlled to prevent 'spikes' in voltage when switching generator/lines. So a transfer switch must disconnect, then connect. You get a short dropout. Cheap motor/alternator systems can't provide the constant freq. Inverters can but also have problems. They typically are less efficient - motor/DC/chopped to AC.
So basically, get the best you can afford as most all appliances depend on good stable power. Commercial electronics is made a cheaply as possible! Result might be removing/replacing entire RGB LED cabin lighting in 12 747's in Australia at your expense. Yes, I fixed the other guys problem. Also was in the furnace PC board assem. line and saw what they use.

 

[Snakeoil]

I've watched this thread for a bit. I was in the power gen business for most of my career and that included a short stint in the fuel cell biz. What we learned based upon research is a 6.5kw generator will service most household needs. But you can get away with a lot less if you do not suffer long term outages or have a history of bad weather outages.

I have a small 2kw Honda inverter generator that I initially bought to run fans under our EZ-up at the racetrack. It is only a 110VAC generator, but will run my well pump, high efficiency gas furnace, fridge, some lights and TV for the occasional power outage. With the exception of things like the October snowstorm of 1987 and Hurricane Irene, most of our outages are substation failures or somebody hitting a pole.

It is important to have the two 110 legs of your service panel balanced. I arranged mine so that the key loads I need to power up during an outage are all on the same leg and so is a 110 outlet on my deck. I simply plug into that outlet and we are back in business.

Inrush currents for things like electric stove/ovens, big motors like on compressors and pumps are what can make an otherwise adequate generator trip offline when one of those tries to start. So, you need to know the starting current requirements for things like that which you may need to power when you size your back-up generator.

Regarding fuels for generators, natural gas would be choice one for me and I have NG in my house. If NG was not available, propane would be #2. The reason being is those fuels produce no carbon as part of the combustion process, so the oil lasts a lot longer. But my little Honda runs on gasoline which is fine for now.

 

[popper]

I just go to my kids house as they and the fire station are on the same line.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

For you folks that talk about power outages with durations of only a few hours – I wish that was my experience. I’ve had numerous outages of over 72 hours and at least two that were more than twice that length.

An 8KW unit is more than enough to meet my needs (mostly pumping water out a of a well, maintaining a refrigerator and some minimal occasional lighting). My demands are not high, and I can easily live without a lot of electronic crap in my life.

As for the inverter generators, there’s some really good things about those units and there’s some hype.

The old conventional generators are capable of producing “clean” power (holding the desired AC frequency and voltage) but they accomplish that mechanically (via engine speed). That requires the engine to be run at a constant high speed, regardless of load. This is inefficient.

The inverter generators use the engine to produce rotating force that drives an AC generator. The AC current is converted to DC current and then BACK to the desired AC current. The advantage is the engine doesn’t have to run at a constant full speed to create the desired AC frequency when the unit is under partial load. Under full load, the inverter is not as electronically efficient (you lose a little energy converting the AC to DC and back to AC, but not much). As for how “clean” (read that as stable) the output is? I’m not convinced the old conventional generators were all that horrible and the new inverter types are all that fantastic.

I installed my generator myself, including setting the frequency under load. After more than 20 years with this set, I’ve yet to damage any electric motors or electronics.

 

[Snakeoil]

I think the primary advantage of an inverter generator is the weight and the low noise. My 2kw Honda idles below the dB level of the human voice. It is also relatively light. Loading a big AC generator into my vehicle by myself for use at the track was not going to happen. This little gem is not weightless, but not a back breaker, either. The downside is they are expensive. MSRP for the Honda is around $1000.00.

 

[Jeff H]

I think the primary advantage of an inverter generator is the weight and the low noise. My 2kw Honda idles below the dB level of the human voice. It is also relatively light. Loading a big AC generator into my vehicle by myself for use at the track was not going to happen. This little gem is not weightless, but not a back breaker, either. The downside is they are expensive. MSRP for the Honda is around $1000.00.

I like the idea of it, price aside.

I'd not sell my current beast, since it's amortized several times over and still like new, but I may look into these.

 

[Snakeoil]

I like the idea of it, price aside.

I'd not sell my current beast, since it's amortized several times over and still like new, but I may look into these.

There are other brands coming from China that are cheaper. Some I've seen have 2-stoke engines and have been pretty reliable. They were used at Motogiro events to power timing lights and clocks. Horror Fright might even offer one, now.