Emergency Generators

[Hawk]

Resurrecting an old thread.
I've sat on my ass and have not bought anything to date. Too many options!
Wife said she would like the whole house wired, so if I'm not here, she doesn't have run extension cords or get in the attic to power the furnace fan.
I'm thinking a 10,000 peak watt unit, dual fuel.
I'll have an electrician wire an inside line and switch from our breaker box to an outside box, like one at an RV park, that we can just plug a big extension chord into.

She'll have to throw the main breaker in our breaker box, to get us off main power, and throw the other switch to access the generator power.
Then she will have power to the whole house. I don't know if 10,000 watts will power the 5 ton A/C, but it should handle everything else. We will just be frugal with what we turn on.
She knows she can't run the ovens or dryer, the only other 220 appliances, because of draw on the generator. Water heater, stove and furnace are natural gas. We just need power to the blower motor to run the furnace .
I don't want to buy an inverter generator.

I would like an inline voltage conditioner. I was wondering if this device would work to clean the voltage up enough to power the electronics, which includes the TV, refrigerators, microwave and computers, without running the risk of blowing out the electronics, due to voltage fluctuations. Replacing a big TV, couple of refrigerator and microwave would hurt my feelings.

I don't know if this is an external line conditioner or not, but it is a lot cheaper than an inverter generator.
Maybe someone else has an idea of an inline conditioner.

https://www.amazon.com/POWSAF-Protector-Waterproof-Defender-Protection/dp/B096BL858Z/ref=sr_1_30?crid=24J3U4XQU3CH1&keywords=external+line+conditioner&qid=1656868271&sprefix=external+line+conditioner%2Caps%2C544&sr=8-30

Some of you RV guys might have experience with something like this.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Winelover]

We built this 4000+ square foot house, ten years ago. When I drew up the house plans, a Generac 21KW whole house generator was on my spec sheet. We don't have access to natural gas, living rural. So we buried a 1000 gallon propane tank. It is fully automatic. Not about to run extension cords or get up in the middle of the night to fill a gas tank, in our advanced ages. I learned from living in Michigan that rural properties are the last to have electric service restored.

We are able to run everything in the house, including two freezers and two refrigerators. AC and heat are geothermal...........it's never shut off. We also have a 90 gallon electric water heater............which is a big draw. So if we were to have an 2-3 week extended outage, like happened just before we moved, I had a 40 gallon gas (propane) one installed for back up. I can take the electric off line (still use as a storage tank) and fire up the gas one, relieving much of the electric demand.

The Generac hasn't given us a bit of trouble. Yearly, maintenance (oil & filter) and a starting battery change, every three years. Plugs were changed out the first time, last year. They have larger capacity generators but then you jump to water cooled and much higher prices. In terms of pricing, whole house generators have come down a lot since first introduced. Use to be $10,000 for just the generator. Nowaday, it's far less than that with professional installation included.

 

[Jeff H]

If I missed it, my apologies, but I did not see that I posted originally.

As an option, I bought a kit for $250 (or so), which provides the switch-gear necessary to accommodate up to six single-pole breakers, or four single-pole and one double-pole breaker in an existing service entrance panel. It mounts beside the SEP and has flying leads so you can wire one lead to the breaker and the other lead to the wire you originally HAD in the breaker, placing the switch-gear in series with your circuit and circuit breaker. Then, you wire from that new box to an outside receptacle (male) into which you plug your generator, via a provided "extension cord" from the generator's 240 outlet.

You still have to drag the generator out and start it, but once you lug it in and fire the generator, let it warm up a minute and then start closing the circuits FROM the SEP TO the generator with a series of switches on that box. This isolates the power YOU are producing from the grid, so you don't have to worry about feeding 17,000V back out to downed wires linemen have to mess with.

I understand your wife's reluctance, and respect her good sense to not mess with something more complex than it needs to be, in an emergency and associated with electricity. Smart woman. I do think t hat the system I mention would be much more comfortable for her to operate with confidence, but then she may also be too smart to want to drag a generator out into the miserable weather and start it.

If were still working a "real job," I'd install a generator that started itself up and ran when the power went out. MY wife has a severe disability, which precludes her from operating a generator or going into the basement anyway.

Don't buy the whole-house package and don't let someone sell you THAT large a generator. You don't NEED all that and won't USE all that under normal circumstances, let alone during an emergency. I have a 5kW portable and it provides more current than we use even during a normal day, so it's more than plenty for what we use during an outage. We stay in the room with the wood stove and have Aladdin Lamps in other parts of the house.

I have my sump pump, well pump, fridge, furnace controls/fan (it's propane), one lighting circuit and one receptacle circuit (in the same room, of course) wired into the six single-pole circuits - all 120V. I don't need to run the water heater in an emergency. Water stays hot in that thing for a day anyway. As long as the sump isn't filling up too fast, we run the generator for 20 minutes to run the furnace, fridge, well and sum pump, and lights for a while, and then turn it off for an hour. K1 provides plenty good light in the interim.

Not saying everyone should do this, but it's an option in between running extension cords and having a stationary generator installed. Any residential electrician could wire this up fairly inexpensively.

 

[Hawk]

I understand that living in the country offers challenges and opportunities that us city dwellers don't have.
I live in the suburbs close to a big city and not on enough land to have a lot of options.
No propane tanks allowed, either above or below ground.
I'll have to rely solely on a portable unit for backup.
We've only had one outage that was serious, but time are changing and challenging.
Just trying to be prepared for short term blackouts.

 

[Jeff H]

@Hawk , here's a link to what I described, but this one includes the remote receptacle to plug the generator into, so it's a few bucks more.

I relocated the receptacle from the switchgear box to a weatherproof box I bought separately and mounted it outside. If they'd had this model when I bought mine, I'd get this one.

https://www.amazon.com/Reliance-Controls-Corporation-31406CRK-Generators/dp/B000BQN4T2

Obviously, a fella could shop around - I linked to Amazon out of convenience.

@Winelover 's solution is the best one, but if you can't do that, maybe there's something in this setup which would at least make things less of a hassle than running extension cords.

You probably know this, but I'll say it just in case someone reading this does not, but when you run a generator, if you run extension cords to your service entrance panel (SEP), you HAVE to open the main breaker to keep from back-feeding the grid. Winelover's system will do that automatically, and the system I am showing does it with each circuit as you bring them online - no way to mess that up. The transformer on the pole outside my house steps 17kV down to 120V/240V before it gets TO my SEP. If I apply 120V/240V FROM my SEP TO the transformer, it will step it up by the same amount and energize the grid, creating a hazard for linemen and anyone subject to contact with downed lines.

 

[Rick]

In terms of pricing, whole house generators have come down a lot since first introduced. Use to be $10,000 for just the generator. Nowaday, it's far less than that with professional installation included.

And including the auto switch which is mandated by most all building codes. When you need to turn off one breaker to kill shore power and then turn on another breaker to run on the generator could be very easy to mess up, not only would you be running 220v throughout the house you would also be feeding your generator power into the grid. A line worker believing the power is off could be killed.

 

[Ian]

I'd be a lot more worried about SUMMER outages than winter. With all the bumblefluckery going on with our grid managers and the whole complicated political mess surrounding power generation in Texas, we simply won't have enough juice to go around this summer.

The Honeywell genset I linked in post #2 can be hooked up to an automatic start box from the same manufacturer, plug'n'play, and it gives you a couple of 110v outlets powered automatically. It's not a whole-house system but you can run certain appliances on them full time and it does the changeover for just those circuits automatically when the input voltage falls off from the wall source. You could build a doghouse for your genset and run cords permanently to a couple of crucial appliances and not have to worry about throwing any switches. The disadvantages are many, including not having 220v capability with the changeover (even though the genset can handle significant 220V loads, likely enough to power your HVAC system), but it will not backfeed if installed correctly and won't require massive work to your electrical system.

 

[Winelover]

I understand that living in the country offers challenges and opportunities that us city dwellers don't have.
I live in the suburbs close to a big city and not on enough land to have a lot of options.
No propane tanks allowed, either above or below ground.
I'll have to rely solely on a portable unit for backup.
We've only had one outage that was serious, but time are changing and challenging.
Just trying to be prepared for short term blackouts.

Natural gas is not an option in the big city?

 

[Glaciers]

I understand that living in the country offers challenges and opportunities that us city dwellers don't have.
I live in the suburbs close to a big city and not on enough land to have a lot of options.
No propane tanks allowed, either above or below ground.
I'll have to rely solely on a portable unit for backup.
We've only had one outage that was serious, but time are changing and challenging.
Just trying to be prepared for short term blackouts.

With the Generac automatic systems John is talking about are natural gas OR propane. So you can just tap your N Gas supply line. We used to be able to locate a generator within 18” of a house, but codes could be different in your area.
I used to sell and install Generac systems. They make life easy. John’s system is about 90 amps which is a lot of power. You could go with a smaller system 11, 14, 16, KW, not sure what they currently offer.
They are trouble free system and fully automatic.
My system is a diesel system with a manual transfer switch. It’s set up on my shop so it’s warm enough to safely start in the cold winters. 12 kw system or 50 amps but all I need.

 

[Glaciers]

Remember one thing: KISS. Keep it simple stupid, especially if you aren’t home and someone else has to deal with it.

 

[Hawk]

Natural gas is not an option in the big city?

Yes but I'm trying not to be dependant on local utilities.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Yes but I'm trying not to be dependant on local utilities.

I fully understand your mindest of not wanting to be dependant on utilities. However, if local laws prohibit propane, you're down to three fuel choices: gasoline, diesel, natural gas. If you go back and read my prior post (#17) , I lay out the pros & cons of each.

While NG makes you dependant on a supply system you don't control, it eliminates all fuel storage issues. No one can make that decision for you. You will have to weigh the factors and decide for yourself.

Both gasoline and diesel units are going to require that you store sufficent quantities of fuel and that brings with it a whole new set of problems. Fire safety, stale fuel, and the need to handle fuel. You will also likely be dealing with a portable generator and some type of large cord to get the electricity from the generator to the house circuits. That means moving a large generator outside, seting it up, running the wire and occasionally fueling it. It also brings the possibility of theft into play. Generators are high theft items in times of emergencies.

I also agree COMPLETELY that a tranfer switch is the way to go. While I am capable of the necessary wiring and switching needs, and you may be also - your wife or others may not have those skills. A transfer switch is just a simpler method and can be installed LONG before the actual emergency exists.

If ease of opperation while you are not present is a concern, a stationary generator (fixed unit, not portable) and a transfer switch is the way to go.
If you can tolerate being dependant on natrual gas (and it is availble to you) that will eliminate a lot of fuel storage/fuel handling issues.

 

[Bret4207]

I understand that living in the country offers challenges and opportunities that us city dwellers don't have.
I live in the suburbs close to a big city and not on enough land to have a lot of options.
No propane tanks allowed, either above or below ground.
I'll have to rely solely on a portable unit for backup.
We've only had one outage that was serious, but time are changing and challenging.
Just trying to be prepared for short term blackouts.

If you are worried about when she's at home alone then look at the automatic transfer switches. Not cheap, but they take all the guesswork out of...well, everything. No lead cords, no feeding the mainline, none of that stuff. Having to pull a genset out during a blackout, get it started, run wires, etc while the rain is pelting you, the wind is howling and the looters are getting warmed up just isn't much fun.

 

[Glaciers]

Yes but I'm trying not to be dependant on local utilities.

I would consider that a 10 KW gas generator is going to use maybe 20 gallons or more in a 24 hour period. Most generators that size are going to have a 10 gallon tank. So I would imagine you would want to have a minimum of 20 gallons on hand. That’s 4 - 5 gallon jugs stored somewhere because you do not want the tank full as that can get stale and gunk things up. And you said propane’s out, so the only practical fuel is N gas.
I’m betting that if your not allowed a stationary propane tank then the Fire Marshall or your insurance company would not allow more then one or two gas cans.

 

[Bret4207]

Yes but I'm trying not to be dependant on local utilities.

So instead you're going to depend on the local gas/diesel/propane supplier? I don't know much at all about natural gas, except that there's a huge line running underground not far from here but the locals aren't allowed to get any of it, but it might be worth looking into if the system goes down with the power. That may make propane, (I can't believe you can't have a 200lbs tank in your back yard, but stranger things have happened), or diesel a better choice.

 

[RicinYakima]

If you are worried about when she's at home alone then look at the automatic transfer switches. Not cheap, but they take all the guesswork out of...well, everything. No lead cords, no feeding the mainline, none of that stuff. Having to pull a genset out during a blackout, get it started, run wires, etc while the rain is pelting you, the wind is howling and the looters are getting warmed up just isn't much fun.

You guys make me feel so lucky! Other than volcanoes, lightening strikes and people driving into the substations, I haven't lost electric power here in 47 years. And then 10 hours was a very long time.

 

[Rick]

You guys make me feel so lucky! Other than volcanoes, lightening strikes and people driving into the substations, I haven't lost electric power here in 47 years. And then 10 hours was a very long time.

All manor of things can put the power out, ice storms, tornado's or wind storms, lightning strikes. About 3 years ago here lightning hit a substation near me and took the whole thing out. Lost power throughout the area for 2 days. Well, not at my house but everybody else.

 

[RBHarter]

A pigeon , quite probably the most unlucky pigeon on the planet , was responsible for blowing up the primary transformer for the step down from the high voltage transmission line to the 6 leg 600 volt local service .

Actually the pigeon was ok it was the raven that went after the nest that caused the problem ........, Ever seen a June bug in a bug zapper ? Yeah I guess it was kind of the same deal and the raven didn't just blow up . Dead short shunt to ground long enough to blow it up 52 hr to replace it and get it live again .

 

[Winelover]

Yes but I'm trying not to be dependant on local utilities.

Can't get away from it. Even a gas or diesel generator is dependent on getting fuel from somewhere.

Back when I lived in Detroit, we experienced a grid failure that lasted three or four days. Surrounding states were affected too. There wasn't a drop of water flowing from the faucets, No electricity, whatsoever. You couldn't purchase gas or diesel............those pumps require electricity. Credit/debit cards were useless.

We were only a little inconvenienced. Because I had my motorhome stored in my driveway. I always keep the fuel tank full, as well as the fresh water tank, weather permitting. Motorhome had a 4000 KW Onan generator. We had AC for sleeping.............it was very hot during that grid failure. Ran extension cord to the house and kept the contents of our refrigerator and freezer from spoilage. We were use to dry camping. We'd camp for two weeks, during Michigan's gun season, without electricity or water hookups.

 

[Bret4207]

Ice storm of '98 took out power to 8 million people in both sides of the US/Canada border, including parts of Ottawa IIRC. I think we were 15 days without power and then I got gifted a borrowed generator. First few days were warm with highs near 30F and melt water was abundant for livestock. About day 3 the temps dropped like a rock and things got tough. You do 2 weeks in January on the 44th paralell with no power and you see the genius in wood heat, more than one generator,keeping extra gas, diesel and propane on hand. I have 4 gens and I'm looking for one for my daughter now!

I would love to have a commercial type with the instant on feature. But I get by with what I have and we use the system generally twice a year for outages of more than 2 hours. Some guys get into sports cars and classic motorcycles, others into trips around the world. Me, I try to make sure that when, not IF, the power goes out for a few days in January we won't be too inconvenienced.