Home sick so I cast a few bullets

[Rockydoc]

Well here is a step in the right direction. If I’m honest, I have only slugged my guns. So I did my first pound cast tonight.

View attachment 15813

This pound cast failed to stay together however. You can see where the casting started to separate from the brass. There is still useful topography to measure.

I know that I’ve got a lot to learn from you guys. I am grateful for all the advice.
Thank again,
Josh

It looks like the rod imbedded in the soft lead and pulled the slug out a little when you extracted the case. Next time place a gas check in the muzzle with the cup over the end of the rod. This should prevent the rod imbedding into the soft plug. I credit This idea to Ian. Rocky

 

[fiver]

looks like an 0-6 to me.


some of use a couple of bullets to get to speed.
you could look at what we use and compare a picture of them to what you see here, and draw some conclusions.
or you could compare them to some other designs and find the closest similarities, then look at what others are doing with those designs.
you'll probably find out quickly that nobody [okay not everybody, but the big, big majority] is using something that relies on the bore diameter nose to get the job done.
they are most likely using a tapered or rounded or sloped somehow someway designed to kind of snuggle everything into a wiggle free space filling easy to move alloy that resembles the throat of their rifle... design.

 

[L Ross]

since we are discussing fast, let's start at the beginning.
the very first thing is to find the center of the barrel, then the outer edges of the throat and leade.
the shape and support of the bullet will decide the speed as much as the interior of the alloy.
[harder isn't always better but the bullet needs to not be doing weird stuff when it gets slapped in the ass]
your goal is to get the bullet from the pot to the target with as little damage or shape changing as possible.
this included base riveting, odd size changes in the size die, scuffing when chambering, or altering the bullet when engraving it.
you can't get there with a perfectly pristine bullet, it just isn't possible.
one of the main key's is to make sure the damage is consistent, minimal, and doesn't change the balance.

Find the center of the barrel?????

 

[fiver]

yep.
it's there, right in the middle.
think about how gravity messes that up.

 

[Joshua]

Brother Love,
It is a two ounce sauce ladle that has a 3/32” hole drilled through the bottom of the bowl. It holds enough lead to fill six 230gr cavities in one pass. It has all the good qualities of a bottom pour pot with out the leaks and being hunched over. It’s funky, but I like how it works.

RockyDoc,
I did use a gas check. I think that I was a bit too aggressive with my tapping. I had lead flash by the check and the check crimped itself over the electrical tape on the end of the rod.

Fiver,
Yes, it is a 30-06. An M1917 with a five groove barrel, that Bubba got ahold of. Bought it in Wyoming 31 years ago, when I was 15 years old, for $75.00. It has an old Taiwanese 4X32 Tasco, in a Redfield mount that is screwed/soft soldered onto the receiver. A walnut Monte Carlo stock, that’s to long for me. I’m currently shooting it with the recoil pad removed, it's gonna get 3/4” whacked off someday soon. It’s got almost no finish left. Functionally Bubba did a good job. It’s a super funky basket case, and I love it!

I didn’t understand when I was younger that it didn’t fit me. Shooting a full power 30-06 in a gun that doesn’t fit you isn’t fun. I’m enjoying shooting it much more now. It languished in the back of my gun locker for many years. It’s got almost no finish left.

Pound Cast,
The pound cast measurements are as follows.

For Groove diameter I got two different numbers with two different measurement methods.

1. With slack jawed calipers and spinning the slug/casting I got .312”.

2. Using my good mic (scherr-tumico w/ratchet), and .006” think aluminum strip wrapped around the slug/casting. I took ten sample measurements and averaged them.
I got .3236” - .012“ = .3116”

Chamber overall length is: 2.524”

Leade: is .075” in length, starting at .338 and tapering to .312” (.312“ is measured from land to groove)

Case mouth minus brass thickness is:
.3414” - .028” = .3134”

The lands taper .003” over a length of .200” after the leade.

To measure the bore I think that I need a v-block and a dial indicator and a better understanding of Trigonometry. Five grooves are difficult to measure.

At the front of the barrel I’m getting .301” for the bore.

Now I get to start looking at more and expensive bullet molds!

Well, after dinner!

Josh

 

[Ian]

Put your Lee 312-155s through it, size .311", seat so the nose kisses the ball seat firmly but not super-hard. Start at 17 grains of 2400 and work up from there. Oh, and make sure you're expanding the case necks properly or better yet, use a bushing sizer die and lee belling die to not make the necks too small in the first place. You're shooting for no more than .002" interference fit between sized bullet and sized case neck.

 

[Ian]

yep.
it's there, right in the middle.
think about how gravity messes that up.

And push-feed ejector plunger pressure, or CRF extractor pressure, loaded cartridge runout, and so on.

Then, once the bullet begins to move, any number of unmitigated alignment catastrophes can befall it.

 

[Joshua]

I can do most of that. I don’t have a bushing sizing die. But, I have been using a NOE .313” x .309” expander plug, and push through sizing with a Lee .311” die.

I’ll make up a dummy and figure out what my OAL needs to be with the Lee 312-155.

Josh

 

[Joshua]

So, I had been wondering why Ian had recommended only sizing to .311” in the post above. Since I had gotten measurements between .312“ and .3116”.

I try not to just ask questions before I do a little data mining. So I found this Ian quote in the thread ”Casting Session, NOE 310-165-FN (30 XCB)”

Ian writes “I tend to smaller sizings with powder-coated, self-aligning bullets in my .30-calibers because that's what Mr. Target says is best, but there is a much different dynamic there than with uncoated bullets which do indeed like to be as large as will function (most of the time).”

I also realized, that a year and half ago when I first started casting for this rifle I didn’t slug it with a lead round ball. I had read somewhere about plugging the barrel and doing a hard wax/paraffin casting. Measuring the wax casting I had gotten .3105” with my mic and an aluminum strip.

Sizing to .311” had worked with low node GC and PB loads, tumble lubed in 45/45/10.

We will see how these new powder coated loads shoot this weekend.

Josh

 

[Ian]

That was a good thread. Bret kept beating a dead horse there the last few pages but there's a lot of good information there.

If you want to know more about HOW I came to that conclusion about sizing for rifle bullets, it's kinda spread out on this thread: https://www.artfulbullet.com/index....ccuracy-with-powder-coated-cast-bullets.4143/

 

[popper]

Case mouth minus brass thickness is:
.3414” - .028” = .3134” If that is slugged dia, pay no attention. 3414 would be chamber neck ID. No way you can fill the space in front of the neck (well, healed bullet would) but it is short so seating front drive band against the ball seat is best you can do.
Just expand to get the case mouth to the 309; 313 of the NOE is flare which gets removed. Lee 311 may give you larger depending on alloy springback.

 

[Joshua]

Ian,
I’m reading that thread now. Good stuff!

Popper,
.3414” is the neck of the pound cast.

.028” is the thickness of my DEN 43 military brass .014” x 2 = .28”

.3134” is therefore the largest diameter that could possibly be chambered. This would most likely be too tight. So I would try .312” with that brass.

Right now my goal is to go faster with powder coating.

If I was lubing these I might try sizing to .312. Or I could use some of my brass that has thinner necks and size even larger.

I’m gonna try .311” powder coated and see how they do.

Josh

 

[Joshua]

I’m gonna try a handful without crimping. So as to center up in the bore.

The rest will just have the bell flattened
out.

Josh

 

[Ian]

You should learn a lot shortly.

 

[fiver]

if you have say like 18 different powders on hand one of the funnest things I have done is work a load with a fastish powder.
say 2400, push it some the worst that happens is you lose accuracy.
at the point you lose accuracy is your cut off point.

then for the fun.
take a slower powder and start at that pressure [grain amount] and work ahead some.
now take an even slower and another slower powder and work them to that same accuracy stopping point from the one ahead.
eventually your gonna get to a slow enough powder that it doesn't burn very good until you step it up pretty far.[something like RL-19 or 22]
now you get out the chronograph and see where you are.
use a different alloy and see what happens.

 

[RBHarter]

if you have say like 18 different powders on hand one of the funnest things I have done is work a load with a fastish powder.
say 2400, push it some the worst that happens is you lose accuracy.
at the point you lose accuracy is your cut off point.

then for the fun.
take a slower powder and start at that pressure [grain amount] and work ahead some.
now take an even slower and another slower powder and work them to that same accuracy stopping point from the one ahead.
eventually your gonna get to a slow enough powder that it doesn't burn very good until you step it up pretty far.[something like RL-19 or 22]
now you get out the chronograph and see where you are.
use a different alloy and see what happens.

This is exactly how I figured out where the bugs were in what I was doing in my first cast rifle . The problems didn't make any sense and atypical solutions didn't work ....... Ultimately it was a barrel defect . Stepping from Red Dot to Unique to 4895 ......maybe I jumped clear to 4350 . Lots of nonspecific learning happened in there .

 

[Joshua]

Well I had a great weekend! I got out to the Forest on Saturday and did a bunch of shooting. And, then on Sunday I took son out free diving (breath hold diving to about a max depth of 60’) for crab.

Ok, so my report from shooting in the forest. I shot 125 rounds of 30-06. I used five different bullets, the Lee 312-155-2r, Lyman 311041, Lyman 311290, Ideal 308241, and the Lee 311-93-1r.

I have a spot in the woods where I have measured off a 100 yard shot. It is a half mile hike off the main service road. This is my primative range. It is public land and it is legal to target shoot there. When I got there on Saturday it was raining/sprinkling on and off. Normally I would shoot prone, but I really didn’t want to lay in a puddle all day long.

I had an alternative plan for a seated shooting rest, I had brought an old camera tripod and a folding chair. This seat/rest setup was better than laying in a puddle, but it really wasn't very stable, and my groups suffered for it. There is a lot of side to side spacing in my groups. In all honesty i feel like a bit of a failure that I spent all this time crafting this ammo and failed to shoot it very well. Next time out I will bring a spade, a few empty sand bags(there is a good pile of gravel at this site), and my mat for shooting prone.

Here are the results:
Lee 312-155-2r, GC/PC, 19gr 2400, mixed military brass, OAL 3.175", No crimp, Five Shot Group Size 3 1/4" @ 100 yards

Lee 312-155-2r, GC/PC, 19gr 2400, mixed military brass, OAL 3.175", No crimp, Five Shot Group Size 1 3/4" @ 50 yards

Lee 312-155-2r, GC/PC, 19gr 2400, DEN 43 brass, OAL 3.175", No crimp, Five Shot Group Size 3 11/16" @ 100 yards

Lee 312-155-2r, GC/PC, 19gr 2400, DEN 43, OAL 3.175", light crimp, Five Shot Group Size 3 3/4" @ 100 yards

Lee 312-155-2r, GC/PC, 17gr 2400, DEN 43, OAL 3.175", light crimp, Five Shot Group Size 3 7/8" @ 100 yards

Lee 312-155-2r, GC/PC, 20gr 2400, DEN 43, OAL 3.135", light crimp, Eleven Shot Group Size 4 1/4" @ 100 yards

Lee 312-155-2r, GC/PC, 17.9gr 2400, DEN 43, OAL 3.175", light crimp, Five Shot Group Size 4" @ 100 yards

Lyman 311290, 34.5gr H4895, w/aluminum 8mm Gas Check/PC, OAL 3.290", light crimp, Five Shot Group Size 6 1/4" @ 100 yards

Lyman 311290, 34.5gr H4895, w/ Copper 30cal. Gas Check/PC, OAL 3.290", light crimp, Five Shot Group Size 2 3/4" @ 50 yards

Lyman 311290, 20gr 2400, w/ Copper 30cal. Gas Check/PC, OAL 3.290", light crimp, Five Shot Group Size 3 1/8" @ 100 yards

Lyman 311041,GC/PC, 20gr 2400, Winchester brass, OAL 3.107", light crimp, Four Shot Group Size 3 1/8" @ 100 yards

The Plain Base bullets shot great at 20 yards, both loads shot ragged one hole groups. Ideal 308241 over 6gr Bullseye, and the Lee 311-93-1r over 3.2gr Bullseye.

However my big victory for the day was getting my 40 S&W M&P Shield to shot twenty-five shots in a row without jamming. This load is what finally worked. Lee 401-175-TC, Lyman#2, 6grains of Herco, sized at .401", powder coated, OAL 1.120”.

Josh

 

[Spindrift]

Sounds like a really nice weekend, Joshua!
I think you got good results, considering the shooting conditions.

 

[fiver]

if nothing else you know what feeds and chambers from the magazine.

 

[Joshua]

The 311041 is getting pretty beat up when loaded from the mag.

I know that both the rifle and I can do better. My favorite shooting spot has this great bolder, that I use as a rest. I’ve shot some pretty good groups, for me (ten shots in an 1 1/4” with one flyer), off the top of that rock. The state has the access road chained off right now.

I did learn a few things. The 311290, over 34.5 grains of H4895 W/Aluminum gas checks is a no go. But the same bullet w/ a copper GC over 20grains of 2400 had one of the better group sizes.

Josh